Graf Spee weakness?

[RF]

RF, yes, U-862's Commander, Heinrich Timm liked to empty his gun! A bit surprising considering his distance from home in Pacific waters with the associated difficulty in reloading. In general, the Liberties were easy to sink, usually requiring one to two torpedoes. I took a look at 19 sinkings on uboat.net, starting with the first Liberty sunk, George Calvert, through Jeremiah Wadsworth and found that the average torpedoes needed was 2. This sampling included a 5 shot sinking of the John Winthrop. In some cases, one or two of the torpedoes included were coup de graces, used to hasten the sinkings of doomed ships. In this case, it appears that the Propaganda Ministry didn't exaggerate the relative ease of sinking these ships.

Regards,
Gerard

Take a look at the sinking of Peter Silvester by U-862, its last victim.....

[RF]

Incidently does your tally of 19 ships include John Drayton, sunk by the Italian sub Leonardo da Vinci?

[Gerard Heimann]

The Sylvester was sunk in 1945. My prior note indicated that I started with the first Liberty ship sunk, so a boat from 1945 would not have been included, especially considering that there were 120 Liberties sunk after my 19th sample. The sampling was kept random that way. I also commented that Timm liked to empty his gun and that was in oblique reference to both sinkings, illustrating that Timm definitely went for overkill, beyond the battleworthiness of a Liberty ship.

Regarding your second note, I cited my source in the same message as being uboat.net which would reasonably include only those boats sunk by uboats.

In sum, the battle records, documented unweatherly performance, and Mr. Sexton's contribution regarding the construction and materials of the Liberty ships support the contention that these ships were easier to sink that most comparable boats. Several instances out of 139 sinkings where overkill was applied doesn't change the result.

Gerard

[lwd]

There is also a distinct possibility that there was considerable varialbility in the quality of construction of a Liberty ship. IE occasionally you would run across one that was much tougher than average (is there room to be much weaker?). A lot could depend on where and when the boat was built. Service in cold waters also seams to have been a factor.

[RF]

As the sinkings by U-862 came close to the end of the war is there any evidence in general that by 1944 much improved construction techniques did make the Liberties more difficult to sink?

I do find the case of the George Clymer (June 1942) a little puzzling in the light of the other evidence posted, that ship took two German LS Boat torpedoes, shells on the waterline from Alcantara and depth charges under the hull etc.
Or was it Sod's Law, a British ship trying to sink an American ship named after one of the signatories to the US Declaration of Independence?

[RF]

The Sylvester was sunk in 1945. My prior note indicated that I started with the first Liberty ship sunk, so a boat from 1945 would not have been included, especially considering that there were 120 Liberties sunk after my 19th sample.
Gerard

Sorry, I didn't realise that that many Liberties were sunk. I am currently unable to access the uboat.net website - computer gremlins....