Best battlecruiser

[Byron Angel]

USS Constitution makes for an interesting (and IMO quite defensible) argument. Bonus points for reference to Constitution’s hull being fitted with diagonal riders; it is not a well-known design feature.

B

Wasn't that mentioned in "Master and Commander"?

I assume you are referring to the book; TTBOMK it was not mentioned in the film due to change in nationality of the opponent (and it was an obscure point that would have gone over the heads of 95pct of the theater audience.

I actually have never read the original book.

B

[OpanaPointer]

My candidate for best battlecruiser:

This is my scratchbuild I.N.S.S. MacArthur, a spacecraft from the Larry Niven / Jerry Pournelle book "The Mote in God's Eye". It was signed by Larry Niven when I brought it to a convention.

[Byron Angel]

That is an IMPRESSIVE piece of modeling, sir!
My hat is off to you.

B

[OpanaPointer]

That is an IMPRESSIVE piece of modeling, sir!
My hat is off to you.

B

I put that in quotes for a reason. Pinterest posting. I didn't picture Big Mac like that but his design works. I read "Mote In Gods Eye" when it hit paperback. I was living on the side of Mt Etna at the time. Space battles and lava bombs and sweet hash, oh my.

[wadinga]

Hi All,

That is indeed a beautiful piece of modelling (Brit spelling), although it does look a teeny-weeny bit like the pointy finial on a Great Western Railway signal.

Back at the Acheron of Master and Commander, her construction is covered thus:

You see, Will here, he seen her being built.

(Will) In Boston, sir. During the peace.

and I knocked you up a model, sir.

- And this framing is accurate?

- Exactly accurate, sir.

Killick, an extra ration of rum for these men.

That's the future.

What a fascinating modern age we live in.

Planking and framing like that

would make her hull two ft thick. Solid oak.

That's why we couldn't dent her.

So Peter Weir did emphasise the toughness of the enemy hull and included some details of her unusual construction in the film, although the French Navy having ships built in Boston is surely stretching things a bit.

The Ship of the Line by Brian Lavery Conway 1983) says diagonal braces were first introduced as remedial measures in older hulls which had started to "work" too badly. However, the French, Americans and even the British via Chatham Dockyard Master Shipwright Robert Seppings started installing them in new construction around 1800. As the latter apparently said, the triangle has much greater rigidity than the square, as well known to " the meanest mechanic".

Jack Aubrey's enemy was made French in the movie as the book's American enemy (based on the exploits of USS Constitution and USS Essex) would have probably damaged US box office receipts.

All the best

wadinga

[OpanaPointer]

No French naval engineers visited the US shipyards during the construction?

[wadinga]

Hi OpanaPointer and all,

The French warship Acheron in the movie, which has the characteristics of USS Constitution, is alleged to have been built in Boston for the French navy which seemed highly unlikely.

Interestingly, however, I see the USS America a 44 gun "ship of the line" was supplied to France as compensation for their loss of the Magnifique whilst assisting the colonists' heroic escape from the yoke of their brutal Colonial masters. Started in 1777 and worked on fitfully, she was not much of a deal as she was scrapped through rot in 1786.

The problem with these "best of" debates is that as naval technology develops increasingly rapidly, designs become outmoded. A Von der Tann is better than an Invincible which was better than a contemporary Blucher, but not as good as a Hood.

Marcelo's observations about powerplant (hp per ton) are most valid because in order to secure the highest speeds, enormous and draggy and expensive and difficult-to armour-adequately hulls were required to house them. The influence of the Washington Treaty on ships built under its rules means these vessels cannot be compared fairly with those that flouted them. Advances in powerplant meant once a free-for-all without Treaty limits was possible, a new BB could be as fast as any BC.

Most importantly by WWII, the BC role as envisaged by originator Jacky Fisher, ie closing an enemy battlefleet and brushing aside its cruiser screen and engaging and slowing its battleships so the rest of a pursuing fleet could catch up had disappeared. Replaced by carrier aircraft. Even the archaic-looking Swordfish could do this, eg Bismarck.

All the best

wadinga

[Byron Angel]

The French warship Acheron in the movie, which has the characteristics of USS Constitution, is alleged to have been built in Boston for the French navy which seemed highly unlikely.

Interestingly, however, I see the USS America a 44 gun "ship of the line" was supplied to France as compensation for their loss of the Magnifique whilst assisting the colonists' heroic escape from the yoke of their brutal Colonial masters. Started in 1777 and worked on fitfully, she was not much of a deal as she was scrapped through rot in 1786.

FWIW, the following information is drawn from "The Sailing Navy 1775-1854", by Paul Silverstone -

"America"
Builder - James Hackett, Portsmouth NH
Laid down - May 1777; Launched - 5 Nov 1782
Dimensions - 182'6" (deck), 150' (keel) x 50'6" x d23'6" (also reported as d22')
Tonnage - 1,982t
Complement - 626 men
Battery - [30 x 18pdr] + [32 x 12pdr] + [14 x 9pdr] (projected)

One of three 74-gun ships authorized in November 1776 by Congress, with "America" the only ship built. Given to France as compensation for the French 74 "Magnifique", wrecked near Boston in August 1782 (exact date unclear; both 11 and 15 August are referenced).
Byron comment - "Magnifique" went aground on a shoal off Lovell's Island in the approaches to Boston Harbor. Interestingly, she was lost AFTER Cornwallis's surrender at Yorktown. Go here for a good account of her demise -
https://newenglandhistoricalsociety.com ... al-career/

Silverstone states that guns and fittings recovered from "Magnifique" were used to equip "America"; judging from the reported armament outfit of "America", "Magnifique's" gun-deck 36-pounders were either not recovered from the wreck or, perhaps more likely, were found too heavy for her to bear after sitting exposed on the stocks for five long years in the harsh New England weather.


Byron

[wadinga]

Hi Byron and all,

Reading the Conway volume "Navies and the American Revolution" Robert Gardiner describes USS Constitution and her sisters as "pocket-battleships".

Given their length and speed, the latter being technologically-enhanced by being copper-bottomed against weed and barnacles, I still think they are more like battlecruisers.

All the best

wadinga

[Byron Angel]

Hi Byron and all,

Reading the Conway volume "Navies and the American Revolution" Robert Gardiner describes USS Constitution and her sisters as "pocket-battleships".

Given their length and speed, the latter being technologically-enhanced by being copper-bottomed against weed and barnacles, I still think they are more like battlecruisers.

All the best

wadinga

In the general sense that a ship like Constitution posed a serious threat to anything that could catch it, yet could likely be able to run away from any ship of really superior power, I think you make a fair case.

The only thing I would point out is that the Constitution class ships to the largest degree ironically made their living as commerce raiders in the War of 1812.

B

[Byron Angel]

DOUBLE POST

[wmh829386]

The problem with these "best of" debates is that as naval technology develops increasingly rapidly, designs become outmoded. A Von der Tann is better than an Invincible which was better than a contemporary Blucher, but not as good as a Hood.

Although I agree the problem of "best of" comparison pointed out here. Later RN battlecruisers from Renown to Furious are all pretty terrible.

With Hood being more of a poorly designed fast battleship then Battlecruisers, judging by then weight of armour it carries. The Tiger and Lutzow are probably the best in that sense.