Radar fitted to HMAS Canberra

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Fatboy Coxy
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Radar fitted to HMAS Canberra

Post by Fatboy Coxy »

Hi All, Wikipedia says HMAS Canberra, while in refit February to May 1942, was fitted with a Type 241 surface search set, and an A290 air-warning set, I am unfamiliar with these, was the A290 a retitled Type 290, and was the Type 241 an Australian design?
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Fatboy Coxy

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Byron Angel
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Re: Radar fitted to HMAS Canberra

Post by Byron Angel »

Fatboy Coxy wrote: Sun Jan 01, 2023 11:43 am Hi All, Wikipedia says HMAS Canberra, while in refit February to May 1942, was fitted with a Type 241 surface search set, and an A290 air-warning set, I am unfamiliar with these, was the A290 a retitled Type 290, and was the Type 241 an Australian design?

Hi FC,
I was able to extract a little bit of information from some British wartime documents on radar that I had knocking around.

Type 241 was classified as an "INT (Interrogator)" - wavelength 1.5m; frequency 214mhz.
It went to see in 1941 for use in conjunction with Type 281 and IFF Mk2N

Type "A290" is a nomenclature I could not find. However, it seems that Type 290 had a very short-lived career, going to sea in 1941 as a replacement for Type 286, but very soon abandoned in favor of Type 291. My suspicion is that Type "A290" might actually refer to the new Type 291/M which shows as having been introduced in 1941 as a replacement for Type 286/290.

Hope this helps. Happy New Year!

Byron
Fatboy Coxy
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Re: Radar fitted to HMAS Canberra

Post by Fatboy Coxy »

Thank you Byron

So both British equipment, Type 290 as I guessed, but I hadn't heard of the Type 241, which creates more questions. So this was part of the IFF kit?, would that be a relatively small fit, compared to the big demand a full radar required in them days, and how many ships were equipped with it?
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Fatboy Coxy

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dunmunro
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Re: Radar fitted to HMAS Canberra

Post by dunmunro »

Fatboy Coxy wrote: Sun Jan 01, 2023 11:43 am Hi All, Wikipedia says HMAS Canberra, while in refit February to May 1942, was fitted with a Type 241 surface search set, and an A290 air-warning set, I am unfamiliar with these, was the A290 a retitled Type 290, and was the Type 241 an Australian design?
According to Appendix 3 of THE DEVELOPMENT OF RADAR EQUIPMENTS FOR THE ROYAL NAVY, 1935-45, Canberra was fitted with a Type 271 WS 10cm microwave radar and a GA Type 285 50cm radar.

I can confirm the presence of a Type 271 radome, but I think, in the photos I've seen of her, the Type 285 has been removed by wartime censors. On many County Class cruisers the Type 285 GS/GA was fitted on the HACS directors and on the main armament DCT, due to it's lighter weight than the Type 284 GS radar.
Fatboy Coxy
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Re: Radar fitted to HMAS Canberra

Post by Fatboy Coxy »

OK, struggling a bit with this, radar isn't my strong suit!

so Type 241 is a typo, should read 271? used for surface search

But I thought 271 was for smaller ships, 273 for cruisers. Did 273 not enter service until later, or was it a case of better a 271 or nothing, because no 273 available?

And 285 would be for fire control, no 290, so what happens to air search requirement.

Or were these radars already fitted, and the ones I noted in my original post, additional?

Confused, I will be!
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Fatboy Coxy

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Fatboy Coxy
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Re: Radar fitted to HMAS Canberra

Post by Fatboy Coxy »

Just looking at a comparator, HMS Exeter was fitted with 279 and 284 during her repair and refit after River Platte, completing end March 1941. I note Canberra had a close range AA upgrade with Pompom and Oerlikons fitted, January 1941, maybe radar added then too?
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Fatboy Coxy

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Byron Angel
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Re: Radar fitted to HMAS Canberra

Post by Byron Angel »

I doubt that "Type 241" is a typo - it is a legitimate RN RDF device.

B
dunmunro
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Re: Radar fitted to HMAS Canberra

Post by dunmunro »

Fatboy Coxy wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 10:34 pm Just looking at a comparator, HMS Exeter was fitted with 279 and 284 during her repair and refit after River Platte, completing end March 1941. I note Canberra had a close range AA upgrade with Pompom and Oerlikons fitted, January 1941, maybe radar added then too?

Jan 1941 would have been too early for Type 284 but Type 279 might have been possible if the upgrade was done in the UK. Exeter had a late model 8in DCT that could support the weight of a Type 284 but Canberra's could not.
dunmunro
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Re: Radar fitted to HMAS Canberra

Post by dunmunro »

Fatboy Coxy wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 10:26 pm OK, struggling a bit with this, radar isn't my strong suit!

so Type 241 is a typo, should read 271? used for surface search

But I thought 271 was for smaller ships, 273 for cruisers. Did 273 not enter service until later, or was it a case of better a 271 or nothing, because no 273 available?

And 285 would be for fire control, no 290, so what happens to air search requirement.

Or were these radars already fitted, and the ones I noted in my original post, additional?

Confused, I will be!
Type 241 isn't really a radar, but an IFF interrogator associated with Type 281 WA/WS/GA/GS radar.

PoW had a type 271 radar and they were fitted to a number of cruisers and capital ships. Most larger ship Type 271s were upgraded to Type 273.

This link gives a very good history of Canberra and confirms the Type 271 Radar:

https://www.world-war.co.uk/Kent/canberra.php

The photo from that link, titled "interesting pic,..." appears to show a Type 285 radar on the after HADT.
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wadinga
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Re: Radar fitted to HMAS Canberra

Post by wadinga »

Hi Fatboy,

It would appear likely A290 was similar to 291 ie a fixed forward pointing Yagi, mounted on top of the foremast, presumably with longer range than the lower bridge mounted Type 271 lantern.

A modeller called Vladi K has posted nice pictures of his rendition at https://www.flickr.com/photos/vladi_k/3 ... otostream/

Another picture of Canberra receiving assistance may help on www.history.navy.mil

https://www.history.navy.mil/content/h ... 13488.html

It seems clutter from land returns rendered these warning systems ineffectual, leading to a successful Japanese assault.

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
Fatboy Coxy
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Re: Radar fitted to HMAS Canberra

Post by Fatboy Coxy »

dunmunro wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 6:07 pm
Type 241 isn't really a radar, but an IFF interrogator associated with Type 281 WA/WS/GA/GS radar.

PoW had a type 271 radar and they were fitted to a number of cruisers and capital ships. Most larger ship Type 271s were upgraded to Type 273.

This link gives a very good history of Canberra and confirms the Type 271 Radar:

https://www.world-war.co.uk/Kent/canberra.php

The photo from that link, titled "interesting pic,..." appears to show a Type 285 radar on the after HADT.
Thank you for the info dunmunro, and that link you provided is an excellent page!
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Fatboy Coxy

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Fatboy Coxy
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Re: Radar fitted to HMAS Canberra

Post by Fatboy Coxy »

wadinga wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 6:30 pm Hi Fatboy,

It would appear likely A290 was similar to 291 ie a fixed forward pointing Yagi, mounted on top of the foremast, presumably with longer range than the lower bridge mounted Type 271 lantern.

A modeller called Vladi K has posted nice pictures of his rendition at https://www.flickr.com/photos/vladi_k/3 ... otostream/

Another picture of Canberra receiving assistance may help on www.history.navy.mil

https://www.history.navy.mil/content/h ... 13488.html

It seems clutter from land returns rendered these warning systems ineffectual, leading to a successful Japanese assault.

All the best

wadinga
Hi Wadinga, thank you for the reply. The model at the link you gave me is great. Re the radar clutter from land returns, I'd read that elsewhere, radar being still in its infancy, there were a lot of ifs and buts for the operators and captains to consider, i can understand, without hindsight, how mistakes could be made.
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Fatboy Coxy

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