German rangefinders WWI

[Tool1958]

Hi Holger,
You are a lucky man! It took me a good amount of time to find the document (provided by an old researcher friend more than 20 years ago).

The Imperial German Navy after Jutland

. . . . . .

Much is known of the Royal Navy's reactions to the unpalatable results of the Battle of Jutland.
Last Updated: 16 October, 2000.

Hello Byron,

Your friend's article goes into detail about the military gun details that were made to increase the gun-barrels,
and with this the range of the guns on German ships. The topic still seems to be relevant for over 20 years.

Among other things, you pointed out 10 years ago:

CB1516 - "Reports on Interned German Vessels - Gunnery Information, February 1919" mentions evidence of BAYERN carrying turret rangefinders of an estimated 25-30 ft (8m?) in baselength installed well forward in the turrets, very close behind the turret face plates. IIRC, there is also mention of evidence of the installation of an estimated 8m rangefinder aboard KOENIG. One of the problems with these British inspection reports, however, is that almost all the really sensitive ans interesting FC equipment of the German ships had been removed before they went into internment.

I am very excited about further results.

Regards Holger

[Byron Angel]

Hello Byron,

Thank you also for your PM with the information there. I will definitely follow up on your tips and references.
If I find something I will share it here, of course.

(I love the AHF-Slogan: "Information not shared is lost"!)

It is surprising that so little attention has been paid to this military-technical issue, even from the German side.

Regards Holger

Information not shared is lost - - - - - TRUE WORDS. And, for all the imperfections, frustrations and abuses of the Internet, we owe many thanks to the people responsible for creating it. We live today in an unprecedented golden age of information sharing opportunity.

Re history, it is sad to say that too much of it is put to purposes other than honesty and accuracy. Military-technical issues are but one. I find myself spending as much time deconstructing all the self-congratulatory triumphalist propaganda histories as I do searching out the actual truth of things. Napoleon's famous maxim - "History is a mutually agreed tissue of lies." Such is life.


Rgds / Byron

[Tool1958]

Hello Byron,
Thank you also for your PM with the information there. I will definitely follow up on your tips and references.
If I find something I will share it here, of course.
(I love the AHF-Slogan: "Information not shared is lost"!)
It is surprising that so little attention has been paid to this military-technical issue, even from the German side.
Regards Holger

Information not shared is lost - - - - - TRUE WORDS. And, for all the imperfections, frustrations and abuses of the Internet, we owe many thanks to the people responsible for creating it. We live today in an unprecedented golden age of information sharing opportunity.
Re history, it is sad to say that too much of it is put to purposes other than honesty and accuracy. Military-technical issues are but one. I find myself spending as much time deconstructing all the self-congratulatory triumphalist propaganda histories as I do searching out the actual truth of things. Napoleon's famous maxim - "History is a mutually agreed tissue of lies." Such is life.
Rgds / Byron

Hello Byron,

I agree with you 110% in everything! (- -)
History is always to be viewed relative and also very flexible.

“Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. . . All History was a
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984
____________________________________________________________________________________

Here's another note; - There are probably both documents and photos to
be viewed in the Zeiss archive. Unfortunately not in English.

Carl Zeiss Archiv.de
https://www.archive.zeiss.de/dokwechs.F ... 9B544&dm=2

Stereoscopic rangefinders should also be found in the index research of
"Militärische Geräte" up to "1945"
https://www.archive.zeiss.de/dothes.FAU ... m=2&thes=1


Sample:
https://forum.axishistory.com/download/ ... &mode=view

However, my main interest is more in which rangefinders were installed on which ships from 1916 onwards.

Regards Holger

[Byron Angel]

Hi Holger,

Funny thing ..... while I was searching for that document re post-Jutland HSF rangefinder upgrades earlier this week, I also came across some even older material from another friend (long since sadly passed away) who had been a life-long afficionado of precision optics and a great authority on the firm of Zeiss/Jena (and Leica/Hasselblad ). He was commenting (this was in the late 1990s) about how, during the years of the GDR in the East, the Zeiss archives had been allowed to fall into a complete state of chaos.

Based upon your latest post, would I be correct in guessing that there has been some success in restoring the collection to a usable and accessible condition? If so, that would be great news.


Rgds / Byron

[Tool1958]

Hi Holger,

Funny thing ..... while I was searching for that document re post-Jutland HSF rangefinder upgrades earlier this week, I also came across some even older material from another friend (long since sadly passed away) who had been a life-long afficionado of precision optics and a great authority on the firm of Zeiss/Jena (and Leica/Hasselblad ). He was commenting (this was in the late 1990s) about how, during the years of the GDR in the East, the Zeiss archives had been allowed to fall into a complete state of chaos.

Based upon your latest post, would I be correct in guessing that there has been some success in restoring the collection to a usable and accessible condition? If so, that would be great news.

Rgds / Byron

Hello Byron, I haven't managed to access the web connection to the Zeiss-archive
yet. I find it quite confusing when I have to enter a complete archive signature that
I can't even know if I haven't had access yet.

But this doesn't just seem to be a common German development in online archives,
as these `thesauri-fetishists´ are making it increasingly difficult to obtain such data.

__________________________________________________________________________


Regarding this topic "German rangefinders WWI" and the background-discussion
about German Rangefinders with 8-m-Basic devices on SMS Baden / SMS Bayern
in 1918, I found the following link shows a photo and the description:

"Westende, Belgium. 1918-11-12. A range finder for the German coastal
battery Tirpitz south west ..." https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/H04287

If I transfer the soldier's proportions to this rangefinder, one could confidently speak
of an 8 m basic device. And since I also suspect that the same basic equipment was
used for large-caliber naval batteries for coastal defense as on the ships of the
Imperial Navy, this would be the first photo for it?!?

While looking for confirmed information about the rangefinder of this
"Battery Tirpitz" I found the following article, but only: (Page 3 / 17)
" . . . . . A observation post on the dike, with telemetry
equipment, was connected to the battery by telephone."

DE DUITSE BATTERIJEN OP DE BELGISCHE KUST IN 1914-1918 BEKNOPT
OVERZICHT Be documentatie die ik voor mijn Gneisenau-artikel

Regards Holger

[Byron Angel]

Hi Holger,
If only more archives were as well organized as those of Australia .....

Byron

[Tool1958]

Regarding further information about the dimensions of the rangefinders on German ships after
1916, I have so far been able to find very little concrete results.

However, the search using records from the rangefinders of German coastal batteries was
more fruitful.

I assume that the types and sizes of the rangefinders for the guns on ships and the coastal
batteries covered the same model range, simply because both the ship-based and land-based
gun types were almost always identical and both were subordinate to the navy.

Therefore, I am also listing the examples of coastal defense rangefinders that I could find.

___________________________________________________________________


Here is an example of the rapid development of rangefinders using the largest and strongest
coastal fort "Hamidieh" on the Asian side of the Dardanelles fortifications between 1914 and 1915.


1914 - Summer 0.80m. (2.6 ft.) rangefinder

001_1914 - Summer 0.80m. (2.6 ft.) rangefinder.png (46.16 KiB) Viewed 25271 times

1915 - February: 3,00 m. (10,0 ft.) rangefinder

002_1915 - February 3,00m. (10.0 ft.) rangefinder.png (82.54 KiB) Viewed 25271 times

1915 - Summer: 6,00 m. (20,0 ft.) rangefinder
This text passage even mentions a 10 meter (33 ft.) rangefinder / telemeter for the first time, although in the
accompanying photo below only a 6 meter (20 ft.) device for Fort Hamidieh is mentioned and shown.

003_1915 - Summer 6,00m. (20,0 ft.) rangefinder.png (86.96 KiB) Viewed 25271 times

[Tool1958]

1915 - End: 3,00 m. (10 ft.) up to 10,00 m. (33 ft.) rangefinder
Sizes from 3 to 10 meters for range finders are also mentioned in this list.

004_1915 - End 3,00 m. (10 ft.) up to 10,00 m.(33 ft.) rangefinders.png (179.08 KiB) Viewed 25271 times

6,00 m. (20,0 ft.) rangefinder for "Fort Hamidieh"
(In this case, the assembly of the range finder was probably quicker than that of the roof construction)

005_6,00 m. (20,0 ft.) rangefinder for Fort Hamidieh.jpg (103.84 KiB) Viewed 25271 times

6,00 m. (20,0 ft.) rangefinder for "Medjidieh Battery"
(Here the same model for a different battery)

006_6,00 m. (20 ft.) rangefinder for Medjidieh Battery.jpg (111.62 KiB) Viewed 25271 times

Original Source: CONFIDENTIAL Report of the committee appointed to investigate the attacks
delivered on and the enemy defences of the Dardanelles straits, in 1919, Admiralty Naval Staff
Gunnery Disvision April 1921 (so called: "Mitchell Report")


This would mean that the 6 meter Navy rangefinder was available at least from the summer of
1915. Assuming that this type was also installed on German ships, this would at least answer
the question of whether the small cruiser "SMS Breslau" could have had a 6 meter rangefinder
in the summer of 1917.

Will be continued . . .
Regards Holger

[Tool1958]

Mysterious; - even the largest, most modern and last battle cruiser "SMS Hindenburg"
had only 3 meter rangefinders when it was commissioned on 10. May 1917?

SMS Hindenburg 3m rangefinder on tripod combat mast.png (158.7 KiB) Viewed 23220 times

Original Source: https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/von_lan ... iginal.jpg
https://von-lans.livejournal.com/113047.html?

SMS Hindenburg 3m rangefinder on armored battle bridge .jpg (50.79 KiB) Viewed 23220 times

Original Source: https://www.destinationsjourney.com/his ... lecruiser/



Will be continued . . .
Regards Holger

[dunmunro]

Mysterious; - even the largest, most modern and last battle cruiser "SMS Hindenburg"
had only 3 meter rangefinders when it was commissioned on 10. May 1917?



SMS Hindenburg 3m rangefinder on tripod combat mast.png
Original Source: https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/von_lan ... iginal.jpg
https://von-lans.livejournal.com/113047.html?



SMS Hindenburg 3m rangefinder on armored battle bridge .jpg
Original Source: https://www.destinationsjourney.com/his ... lecruiser/



Will be continued . . .
Regards Holger

Hindenburg's main battery turrets appear to have long base integral RFs.

[Tool1958]

Hindenburg's main battery turrets appear to have long base integral RFs.

Hello Dunmunro,

Thank you for your explanation. I am also familiar with this in broad strokes.
However, my level is only based on the book by Paul Schmalenbach ("Die Geschichte
der deutschen Schiffsartillerie" - 1968) and Georg von Haase ("Skagerrak" - 1920)

Without going into details; - Almost every later larger turret with two (28-cm, 30-cm, 38-cm)
guns had a range finder on the right and left.



But that's not what I mean, I mean the rangefinders further up, on the bridge and mast.

Rangefinders on SMS Hindenbeurg.png (131.07 KiB) Viewed 22821 times

Original Source: https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/von_lan ... iginal.jpg


As an example of what I'm talking about, here is a picture of the light cruiser "Königsberg"
with two identical 6 meter rangefinders. One over the armored bridge, and one on the battle
mast. (Another was in the aft area)

Rangefinders on Königsberg.png (205.02 KiB) Viewed 22821 times

Original Source: https://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Bi ... berg-2.jpg


Question: Where were the 4m, 5m, 6m or even 8m rangefinders, wich are already
mentioned on the larger ships of the high seas fleet; - only in the gun turrets?

Regards Holger

[Tool1958]

The following lines also do not give a definitive answer as to which sizes of range finders were
used on German ships of the Imperial Navy in World War I. However, they clearly show where
developments are headed in the future positioning of range finders. “Higher and bigger” which
is understandable and logical when visibility is clear.

(English translated text)
"The value of high-altitude artillery control centers became apparent very early on,
as they allowed a much better view at higher altitudes and were no longer or only
slightly obstructed by the annoying smoke from the chimneys."

(German original text)
"Bereits sehr frühzeitig erwies sich der Wert hochgelegener Artillerieleitstände, da
sie in größerer Höhe wesentlich mehr Sichtweise zuließ und zudem nicht mehr oder
nur noch geringfügig von dem lästigen Rauch der Schornsteine behindert wurden"

Original Sources: "Schlachtschiffe und Schlachtkreuzer 1905-1970", Siegfried Breyer, 1970
"Kriegsschiffbau : Ein Lehr- u. Hilfsbuch für die Kriegsmarine", Heinrich Evers, Berlin 1943

_____________________________________________________________________________________________


On the subject of rangefinders, we can find a clear representation below in the forum www.shipbucket.com
regarding further planning during the First World War. Although it is 'just' a drawing, but the above-mentioned
forum is known for its claim to accurate representations. It is Design No. 5031 for a fast capital ship (GK) from
10. May 1918. (Length: 270 meter, 6 x 42-cm S.K. L/45 and 4 x 15-cm S.K. L/45)

This graphic is based exactly, among other things, on the drawings and explanations in the book on page 92:
"German capital ships 1915 to 1918", Friedrich Forstmeier / Siegfried Breyer, Bonn 2002

You can see the two battle masts with the same height as well as the two armored command posts above the
front bridge and in the aft area. Together with a total of four 5 or 6 meter range finders. Of course, each
of the three main-turrets had its own internal rangefinder.

Fast Capital Ship - Schnelles Großkampfschiff 5031 in 1918.png (121.3 KiB) Viewed 22235 times

Fast Capital Ship - Schnelles Großkampfschiff 5031 in 1918.png

(68.44 KiB) Not downloaded yet

Original Sources: http://shipbucket.com/drawings/9517/file -&ä- http://shipbucket.com/drawings?category ... hipType=10


Without wanting to dramatize it; - I am really surprised why in the literature of luminaries such as
Breyer, Gröner, Schalenbach, Forstmeyer etc. have been given little or no information on this subject.


Will be continued . . .
Regards Holger