Turret design
Turret design
I've been searching the web for an answer to my question and I came upon this site. I wonder if anyone knows why turret design evolved from the round "hatbox" style turrets on pre-dreadnoughts and dreadnoughts to the slabsided style seen on most WWII battleships? Thanks in advance if anyone can point me to an article or a reply.
Re: Turret design
I suspect it comes down to ease in manufacturing. Large flat slabs of steel are fairly easy to make and handle. Heat treating curved sections can be a special pain as they will often (like almost always) warp at least a little.
Re: Turret design
I think it's more efficient in the use of the internal volume, where you are trying to fit two to four guns pointing in the same direction along with FC and crew. If the internal volume is efficient, so is the weight. Finally, if you have long, powerful guns, you need a counterweight and it's efficient to have that hanging off the rear of the turret. That is why the armor plate on the back of the turret is thicker than you would normally expect.
Re: Turret design
Early pre-dreadnought gun houses, such as the circular turrets on the USS Oregon and other vessels of the 1890s utilized off mounting loading positions. The guns had to be trained onto one of two fixed loading positions mounted below the turret level, and the guns elevated to the prescribed loading angle. They could then be loaded by the big steam rammers used at that time. When loaded they were trained back on target.
This was a hold over from the days of the barbette mountings in which the guns were exposed and the crews within the barbette were protected only by an overhead shield and the barbette armour; of course the proceedure negated any thought of continuous aim. There were some intermediate designs where a number of rounds and charges could be stored in the turret and fired off, but eventually the turret would have to be trained onto a set bearing to line up with the fixed hoists to replenish ready use ammo. When designs for smaller, more efficient loading systems became available, turrets were redesigned with an overhang so that the new on mounting loading arrangement was at the rear and rotating hoists could deliver ammunition to the turret regardless of bearing. The turret could thus be kept trained on the target during the whole loading cycle. The rest of the shape of the late pre-dreadnought and dreadnought era turrets was determined pretty much by utilization of space--and was approached in different manners by different designers.
This was a hold over from the days of the barbette mountings in which the guns were exposed and the crews within the barbette were protected only by an overhead shield and the barbette armour; of course the proceedure negated any thought of continuous aim. There were some intermediate designs where a number of rounds and charges could be stored in the turret and fired off, but eventually the turret would have to be trained onto a set bearing to line up with the fixed hoists to replenish ready use ammo. When designs for smaller, more efficient loading systems became available, turrets were redesigned with an overhang so that the new on mounting loading arrangement was at the rear and rotating hoists could deliver ammunition to the turret regardless of bearing. The turret could thus be kept trained on the target during the whole loading cycle. The rest of the shape of the late pre-dreadnought and dreadnought era turrets was determined pretty much by utilization of space--and was approached in different manners by different designers.
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Dave Saxton
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Re: Turret design
Sometimes what appears to be straight might be not be. For example, the Bismarck's turret face plates were actually slightly curved.lwd wrote:I suspect it comes down to ease in manufacturing. Large flat slabs of steel are fairly easy to make and handle. Heat treating curved sections can be a special pain as they will often (like almost always) warp at least a little.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.
Re: Turret design
Were the plates themselves curved or just the fronts? In any case I still strongly suspect ease in manufacture and heat treating was at least part of the answer. Look at the impact it had on tank design in the inter war years for instance.
Re: Turret design
Yes, use of face hardened armour would add a complication to manufacturing extrensively curved plates. Early turrets were often wrought iron, compound, nickle steel, and such, but when Krupp nickle-chromium armour was introduced in the mid 1890s, extreme curves were most easily produced by using Krupp non-cemented instead of cemented armour. Slight curved plates of KC were possible without too much difficulty, but the real problem was one of space. Boxey shaped containers hold more than circular ones, so designers tended to start with a rectangular box big enough to hold all the hoists, controls, rammers, range finders, etc, then since one did not need to waste armour on empty spaces, pared away empty spaces, giving turrets the shapes we have become familiar with--ie sloping guhouse crowns, and sloping fronts, or multi-faceted like on Bismarck.
Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
They stood and Earth's foundations stay;
What God abandoned these defended;
And saved the sum of things for pay.
Re: Turret design
Thanks for the responses. I also found this info...
"The Mark 12 was the first USN turret with an inclined glacis plate, an invention by Chief Constructor Philip Hichborn. The cylindrical turret used on previous ships had vertical sides, thus requiring large gunports in order to achieve even a limited elevation. The inclined face of the Mark 12 meant that high elevations could be achieved with gun ports only slightly larger than the outside gun diameter, resulting in greatly improved protection. This basic design was so successful that the USN continued to use it for gun mounts and turrets until after World War II. "
"The Mark 12 was the first USN turret with an inclined glacis plate, an invention by Chief Constructor Philip Hichborn. The cylindrical turret used on previous ships had vertical sides, thus requiring large gunports in order to achieve even a limited elevation. The inclined face of the Mark 12 meant that high elevations could be achieved with gun ports only slightly larger than the outside gun diameter, resulting in greatly improved protection. This basic design was so successful that the USN continued to use it for gun mounts and turrets until after World War II. "