The future of Europe

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RF
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by RF » Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:36 am

I see that now the new European Parliament ''elected'' last June has moved to provide its MEP's with massive increases in salary and expense allowances...... not that I am surprised. It shows where their true loyalties lie, even at a time of very deep recession within the EU countries. Power without responsibility or true accountability, I as a voter and taxpayer can do nothing about it. This lot remain fireproof for another four years plus.
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RF
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by RF » Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:06 pm

It has been announced today by Britain's Foreign Secretary, David Miliband, that the Britsh Labour Government fully supports the accession of Turkey into the EU. Britain's main two opposition parties, the Conservatives, and the Liberal Democrats, have fully endorsed this move.

Not only is the entry of Turkey into the EU prejudicial to the interests of the British economy and taxpayers (but not the interests of the political nomenklatura that runs the EU), I would question whether it is in Turkey's interests to do so. I would also challenge the case on grounds of geography, as Turkey is not truly a European country, as a previous and late former president of the European Commission, Roy Jenkins, observed when Turkey's previous application to join was rejected.

It is gratifying to know that the voters of Britain will not be consulted on this move at all, as all three of Britain's main political parties do not believe in Britain as a truly self-governing nation.
We will however be having a general election in a few weeks, in which everything to do with the EU will be airbrushed out of all debate. I still however can and will vote against the three quisling parties named above.
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Gary
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by Gary » Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:01 pm

Hi RF.

Yes, the bloody government is slowly sweeping away our identity, we will become nothing more than a cog in the machine of Europe in a few years.

We (Britain) dont seem to make much nowerdays - what cars on todays market are British, what major industry do we export nowerdays?

As for Turkey, Istanbul is the only city in the world to be sited on 2 continents and I dont think its really European either.

As for the Labour government, how refreshing to hear that they have finally agreed to replace the shite thinnly armoured army vehicles that have been IED fodder and have killed so many of our brave troops, trouble is they wont arrive until 2011 (according to Kate Garraway on GMTV) - oh and isnt it convienient that they've annouced the replacement 2 months before the election :negative:
Gordon Broon must think we are all stupid
God created the world in 6 days.........and on the 7th day he built the Scharnhorst

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RF
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by RF » Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:19 am

And yes Gary, the forthcoming election - it looks like it will be May 6 2010 after all - presents voters with the chance of sweeping away the current political triopoly and replacing it with a UKIP Government.

All it takes is for a few million voters to switch, and the 12 million or so non-voters bothering to turn out and vote the right way. Not too much to ask.
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by Bgile » Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:14 pm

Isn't Rover British? I have seen a fair number of newer ones here in the NW in the past few years.

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Gary
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by Gary » Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:35 pm

MG Rover went into administration about 4 years ago.
Rover used to be a quality car but in their final days the cost cutting was all to evident.
My MG ZR (Rover made) car needed the brake pads replaced after only 9000 miles (and I'm not a speed freak or heavy braker by any means) - the mechanic (private garage) who did it said Rover had just put cheap pads on to begin with.
My parents also had a Rover made car which had the head gasket leak (Rover cars are notorious for this, it happened on mine too) then they found the pistons needed replacing at a cost of £1600 - it would have cost nothing if they'd claimed off Rover but its hard to claim off a company that no longer exists.
After one or two other problems they cut their losses and traded the car in with barely 40,000 miles on the clock.
My dad had owned a string of British made cars over the years (Austin Metro, Austin Montego, Rover 400, Rover 200, Rover 45) - he liked them and was pleased to be buying British

Jaguar is now owned by Ford I believe, Bedford ceased to exist many years ago (My Dad worked for a company years ago that had loads of Bedford lorries).
The ship building industry is a shadow of its former self, the Corus steel plant at Middlesborough was closed down

Britian like most of Europe is held to ransom by the Gas prices that Russia sets.

However, the Falklands has recently revealed some oil so perhaps our industry isnt quite dead - if we can keep Argentina from running to the UN every 5 minutes complaining about us. :lol:
God created the world in 6 days.........and on the 7th day he built the Scharnhorst

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Re: The future of Europe

Post by hammy » Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:43 am

I shall be in Istanbul / Constantinople for a fortnights (first) visit from next Thursday 18th March .
Having met a few Turks , including the ones from our local Kebab shop who hail from Trabzon (Trebizond/Trapezontas) up on the south coast of the black sea , I can assure all of you that they view with horror current Western European / U S thinking which conflates and classes them with the Arab nations to the east and south .

Kemal Ataturk and his successors made every effort to de-islamicise and secularise the Turkish state , and it is ironic that the chief opposition to their entry into the E U centres on their record on human rights , when most people in these more liberal communities ( including most of you I suspect ) would find the sight of a group of Turkish policemen issuing summary and vigourously applied physical chastisement to your local population of yobbos , a heartwarming prospect .

The dominant religion in Turkey is Islam , but it is an Islam generally a far cry from the nutter fringe to be found in the Yemen , the Sudan , and similarly perverse locations .
More like the notion that the northwestern countries of Europe are "Christian" when that is nowadays an utterly nominal status .

A nation which drinks Raki in the quantities the Turks do cannot be classed as strictly religious , now can it ?
I shall visit the mosques there , and I have no fear of doing so , for this is a hospitable people , Westernised in culture , in outlook , in aspiration and in temperament .
I shall visit the Meyhanes (taverns) there and get very well "oiled" in the company of their ordinary menfolk , for their culture regards xenophobia as unacceptably ill-mannered .
True there are some conservative voices there , calling for a reversal of the wilder forms of capitalist excess , and moral decline .
Anyone walking the streets of my own provincial city of an evening and viewing the crowds of semi-naked drunken painted trollops cavorting about in mid-debauch would be inclined to agree and say these people do have a point . I do . Frankly for some of them a Burkha would be a good idea .

If Turkey is kept out of Europe on these specious Islamophobic and Liberal grounds , whipped up by Greece and Austria and the Balkan states on historical animosity , and by the leftwingers idealisms and the far right 's racisms , the alternative is a Turkey that is pushed back towards and eventually into the "Islamic fold" , and we will have no-one but ourselves to blame for that stupid situation .

There is a chance here to bring into the E U a nation of generally hard working people of good character and similar mindset to ourselves . Let us have them in then . And the Serbs , and the Albanians too say I .

I shall discuss these matters there over a drink or eight and let you have their thinking on these issues on my return . Or appearance on Al-Jazeera ! ! :D
" Relax ! No-one else is going to be fool enough to be sailing about in this fog ."

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RF
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by RF » Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:57 am

Gary wrote: Britian like most of Europe is held to ransom by the Gas prices that Russia sets.

However, the Falklands has recently revealed some oil so perhaps our industry isnt quite dead - if we can keep Argentina from running to the UN every 5 minutes complaining about us. :lol:
Britain is actually a gas producer in its own right.

I am not aware of any oil finds in the Falklands. All that has happened is the granting of licences to drill.
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RF
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by RF » Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:09 am

hammy wrote:
If Turkey is kept out of Europe on these specious Islamophobic and Liberal grounds , whipped up by Greece and Austria and the Balkan states on historical animosity , and by the leftwingers idealisms and the far right 's racisms , the alternative is a Turkey that is pushed back towards and eventually into the "Islamic fold" , and we will have no-one but ourselves to blame for that stupid situation .

There is a chance here to bring into the E U a nation of generally hard working people of good character and similar mindset to ourselves . Let us have them in then . And the Serbs , and the Albanians too say I .

I shall discuss these matters there over a drink or eight and let you have their thinking on these issues on my return . Or appearance on Al-Jazeera ! ! :D
Join the EU or go into Islamic fundamentalism - frankly that is a matter for the Turks. Turkey should govern itself and should not be a problem for the British taxpayer to sort out.

I want neither Britain or the EU as the world's policeman.
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by Bgile » Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:47 pm

[quote="RF]I want neither Britain or the EU as the world's policeman.[/quote]

I don't want my country to be the world's policeman. who does? Everyone hates you and you spend billions to cause everyone to hate you.

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Gary
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by Gary » Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:51 am

I am not aware of any oil finds in the Falklands. All that has happened is the granting of licences to drill.

I think its almost a certain that they'll find what they seek
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hammy
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by hammy » Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:49 pm

RF wrote: Join the EU or go into Islamic fundamentalism - frankly that is a matter for the Turks. Turkey should govern itself and should not be a problem for the British taxpayer to sort out.

I want neither Britain or the EU as the world's policeman.
Here we go again . You and your taxes , hey ? For an accountant , you really dont seem to get it .
Since the end of the cold war we all now live in a world system which is rampantly Capitalist , yes ?
That system relies on economic growth which is regarded as wholly GOOD , as opposed to the condition of slow growth BAD stasis WORSE or a slight shrinkage - RECESSION -- AAAARRRGGHH ! ! !

What those terms ACTUALLY mean is that people spent slightly more / slightly less / about the same , of their liquid wealth in a given period on things they desired .

There are a number of ways to "Grow" an economy , and the simplest way is to increase demand , i e more people spending , or the same people spending more .
As posted elsewhere this is why the application of population control , the certain way of reducing mankinds lemming-like expansion to plague proportions , is cast as wicked commie plotting , for a steady population means static demand , or at least demand levels lower than they could be .

In the case of the E U , the very centre of its purpose (and one supported by you R F ) is the Economic one . Fine , then the Union is expanding to bring in additional populations , consumers all , to increase the demand levels for all the goods , services , and so on , so spurring on GROWTH .

However , the GROWTH will be much increased at some future stage if these populations are made able to start a higher level of consuming sooner .

THAT is why the leading economies in the E U , Britain among them , pour funds into the new , relatively poor , new member states . All those infrastructure projects create a lot of employment , the wages get spent on extra stuff , some of that stuff is "Made" at a place near you , that puts income into your own local bit of the economy , so you have invested in something to get a return , and the whole wheel goes around and around .

Standing there mithering over the quantity of taxes you pay is the equivalent of wanting to put your money in a sock under the mattress , dont you see ?

And I'm not Advocating that as a "Good" system , just saying that that is the (very much simplified) model of how the thing works .

Now of course there are constraints over what are going to be suitable new populations , things like stability , freedom from repression and so on , but this is not anything to do with these things being moral or liberal aspirations , it is the economic truth that if a mob has just burnt down your home , or you have to pay the local policeman half your weeks wages , or your two teenage sons have both been conscripted into the army , then you are unlikeky to be flipping through the pages of your Argos catalogue to see if you can run to a nice pair of curtains for the lounge .
It really is that simple , but it is dressed up to be High Moral Purpose .

Given that the Nation State is becoming a gradually redundant model for the organisation of the world (and a jolly good thing too when you look at the mayhem that characterised the previous century !) saying that "The Turks should govern themselves" no longer cuts it .

I am aware that the "Insular sector" hold that Britain could somehow gain from a withdrawal from all this , and become some tight little island that was somehow better off on its own , yet behind the propaganda there seems to me to be little logical reasoning .
Now if you know something I dont , please come here and say .
" Relax ! No-one else is going to be fool enough to be sailing about in this fog ."

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RF
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by RF » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:13 am

Gary wrote:I am not aware of any oil finds in the Falklands. All that has happened is the granting of licences to drill.

I think its almost a certain that they'll find what they seek
This is an interesting question Gary. I don't think there is any oil there. I could be wrong, but there again remember the Chaco War, and what a useless waste of life that was. I gather that some gas and oil was eventually found in the Chaco, but it has hardly made either Bolivia or Paraguay rich contries.....

If oil were to be found in the Falklands, the costs of extraction would be collossal, and probably requires the funding and logistics of an oil major. BP so far has shown little interest, indeed one company to keep an eye on if oil were to be found is Repsol YPF, a predominantly Spanish oil company that is part Argentine owned......
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RF
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by RF » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:36 am

hammy wrote: Now if you know something I dont , please come here and say .
As you are trying to lecture an accountant with an economics degree, I can tell you that you can have economic growth and international capital flows within Europe and anywhere else hammy without the political structure of the European Union.
There is still in existence the European Free Trade Area (EFTA) which has the ultimate aim of the continent of Europe being a free trade region, without the tariff structure that the EU operates. Free trade generated by the private sector offers the best scope for long term economic development of the Balkans and eastern Europe, including also Russia and the other former countries of the Soviet Empire. Such policies assisted by economic development programmes in education and technology, funded by the private sector can speed balanced economic development and growth.

What is not necessary is a political nomenklatura seeking to excercise political control over the whole area, using the economic straightjacket of a common currency and interest rates, which causes problems where there are differing rates of economic growth, inflation and with the structural immobility of labour.

I don't see why as a taxpayer I should have to fund the cack handed policies of the political nomenklatura that is the body of the EU. The whole continent of Europe could benefit without the EU as freely co-operating independent countries, based on the policies outlined above. What we face with the EU, as advocated by you, is incorporation of all the Balkan countries plus Turkey into the EU, throw taxpayers money at these countries to cover up the structural problems of sudden economic liberalisation in these countries so they can join the euro, whilst at the same time we have the sudden free movement of largely unskilled labour into countries like Britain, where our social security system has to look after them, while they try to find work here and in many cases don't speak any English. It is also a matter of record that these people also bring with them crime (including organised, international crime) and anti-social behavior, which has and is a particular problem in the city of Wolverhampton, where I live.
And then our out of touch politicians wonder why people in Britain start voting for parties like the British National Party.......whose policies of immigration control I suspect hides a hidden agenda of ethnic cleansing and the slippery slope to even more sinister conclusions.
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RF
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by RF » Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:01 am

hammy wrote:
Given that the Nation State is becoming a gradually redundant model for the organisation of the world (and a jolly good thing too when you look at the mayhem that characterised the previous century !) saying that "The Turks should govern themselves" no longer cuts it .
The EU wants to be a nation state - the nation of Europe. That is why it appropriated the name of the continent to itself and has its own flag and national anthem, and wants its own armed forces and foreign policy.

I don't think the nation state is a thing of the past. Many people see the virtues of home rule, not least in Scotland and Wales, with their parliaments and governments, even though they have virtually no real power. Evidently the political classes who run the EU also don't think the nation state has had its day, as they dress it up like one.

The EU is actually a supranational state, rather like the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the Ottoman Empire, supranational states where there is no democracy and no local control of local affairs. They certainly have had their day and thankfully consigned to history. Much the same can be said of the Soviet Union. Do I want what some call the European Soviet Union? No thank you. But left to our ''mainstream'' politicians, I would not even be allowed to vote on it.
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