The future of Europe

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lwd
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by lwd » Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:05 pm

While I disagree with a lot of what Karl says I'm not sure this is supportable.
JtD wrote:Frankly, the barbaric Christian Hordes in the Middle ages have proven more of of a problem to Islamic people than vice versa....
After all Islamic countries made significant inroads into Christian ones well before the latter started counter attacking.

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Re: The future of Europe

Post by lwd » Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:10 pm

Bgile wrote:Karl,

I think you are painting Moslems with too broad a brush. Many of them do not subscribe to the teachings of the radicals.
Indeed the trend seems to be more and more of them are not just not subscribing to the philosopy of the radicals but are taking issue with it and their methods, in some cases violent issue with it. Karl posted an poll with in Pakistand from 2004 where Osama was well thought of. I'd be very interested to see what a similar poll would say today.

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Re: The future of Europe

Post by lwd » Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:04 pm

I found this article which may be of interest and some relevence although it's more about Islam in the US than it is about Europe.
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htinte ... 90610.aspx
This one also looks to be relevant:
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htlog/ ... 90610.aspx

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Karl Heidenreich
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by Karl Heidenreich » Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:09 pm

JtD:
Frankly, the barbaric Christian Hordes in the Middle ages have proven more of of a problem to Islamic people than vice versa....
At Lepanto the Chrisitians were repelling an attack on the European mainland. As a matter of fact the muslims even got as to surround Viena. If we put aside Bram Stoker´s fictional character then we have Dracula (Vlad Tepes) who in the XV century had to fight turkish off Romania´s land (with very effective means as a matter of fact: impalement).

And there is a very important fact that everybody ignores here and it´s that the muslims got into Europe via Spain and that by 1492 the Catholic King and Queen of Spain kicked them out of the country. God bless them!

About the cultural problems that the islamic presents (which by no means is a derivative of race but of ideology) is that according to the Quoran there is no space for more disertartion on man´s surroundings. Quoran engulf everything so there is no need to research and to seek any other truth. Why? Because Quoran is the sole truth. So, the arabic thinkers and phoilosophers that were the most advanced ones in their ages, and so the doctors and mathematicians all needed to stop. No more algebra, no more brain surgery, no more study of the stars. They stagnated for centuries. Today, the need they have of technology is just in order to produce a nuclear device, just that. And that´s the kind of idea that it´s getting into Europe (and some parts of America).

Remember that Quoran is also a regulatory book, not just a spiritual guide. Quoran dictates how a family must live, how you eat a chicken, how goverment must be ruled. It´s not like the Bible which served as a platform for harsh interpretations, nope: Quoran is explicit, it´s clear, there is no intepretation on how a woman must be dressed. Quoran merges religion and goverment as a rule. Teocratic goverment is the ONLY goverment. Which is why Attaturk, conscious of the barrier Quoran represents, decided that in order to have a secular state he must kick the mullahs out of the way.

Nobody contested here, neither, the fact of how these people behave with their women or with their children. Nobody contested here the Paris´insurrections.

But more important is the fact that whilst natural european couples are not breeding any children at all these guys (islams) breed like rabbits. Sometime soon the population curve will intersect. And then what? Maybe we will have the islamic republic of Italy where all churches are destroyed because they are infidel art: Michaellangelo or Da Vinci works destroyed as the Buddas in Afganistan. Or "Reino de España Musulmana" which woul make Zapatero so damn happy.

Am I painting these people with a broad brush? When you paint a wall you don´t use a small brush. I just came from the supermarket at Trincity (T&T). I was surrounded by them. I know what I´m talking about.

Best regards,
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill

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Karl Heidenreich
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by Karl Heidenreich » Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:16 pm

lwd:

The poll result you asked for:
Pew surveys in 2008 show that in a range of countries - Jordan, Pakistan, Indonesia, Lebanon, and Bangladesh - there have been substantial declines in the percentages saying suicide-bombings and other forms of violence against civilian targets can be justified to defend Islam against its enemies. Wide majorities say such attacks are, at most, rarely acceptable
But read it well: they "do not support terrorist tactics". Ok. But that doesn´t means they want to leave their arcaic way of life to introduce themselves in the XXI Century. That doesn´t mean they will not kill Jews if "needed". That doesn´t mean they will not throw acid to their wifes or shoot their raped daughters. That doens´t mean they are tolerant at all. Just that they don´t believe that it´s good warfare to put some dinamite around the waist, get into a bus full of children (maybe their own kind) and push a button.

And that´s important because, if you follow through, the majority of these terrorist attacks are conducted by islamic people against islamic people: they blow islamic markets, islamic schools, mosques... The main amount of fatalities in Irak are not from US smart missiles or "genocidical US troops" but from islamic´s themselves killing their own people.

Anyway, when the Twin Towers colapsed there were multitudes in Cairo, Islamabad and Damascus dancing in the streets and singing praises to Allah.

Best regards,
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill

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Re: The future of Europe

Post by Lutscha » Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:36 pm

As an atheist imo Religion (whichever it may be) has always hampered progress and understanding and getting rid of it wouild be highly beneficial for mankind. Regrettably an utopia like Star Trek will never happen.

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Karl Heidenreich
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by Karl Heidenreich » Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:50 pm

Lutscha:
As an atheist imo Religion (whichever it may be) has always hampered progress and understanding and getting rid of it wouild be highly beneficial for mankind. Regrettably an utopia like Star Trek will never happen.
:ok:

I´m not an atheist due that I believe in God. I refer to myself as a "non practicing catholic" but I do agree that religion, as conceived by mankind has always been a source of injustice and an obstacle to any kind of progress. All religion, specially organized religion, only purpose is to perpetuate a group of unethical and reckless people to have dominion over the population.

But even Catholics have learned to step aside to let progress and science to advance (well, sometimes at least). The islamic problem is that they still refute science, and literature and any kind of knowledge that it´s not in the Quoram.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
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lwd
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by lwd » Fri Jun 12, 2009 1:50 am

Lutscha wrote:As an atheist imo Religion (whichever it may be) has always hampered progress and understanding and getting rid of it wouild be highly beneficial for mankind. Regrettably an utopia like Star Trek will never happen.
Atheism is just another religion. The only ones with any sort of claim on not being religious are the agnostics. Religion has played a complicated roll through the ages. At times it has had extremely positive effects on both progress and understanding. At other times the opposite. Often enough both at the same time.

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Re: The future of Europe

Post by Lutscha » Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:15 pm

Looking at our history and at today I think the negative effecst outweight the positive by far.

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Karl Heidenreich
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by Karl Heidenreich » Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:58 pm

Looking at our history and at today I think the negative effecst outweight the positive by far.
Which is specially true nowadays with Islamic faith. I cannot find a signle positive thing in it, not one. They are here to threaten freedom, science, art and all positive things. Islam is the negative side of life. And it is taking control over European weak social democratic institutions and now is in Osama (sorry, Obama) mind to mix the US culture with it. When that happens it´s ALLES KAPUT for western culture. Why? They are more: as the allies in WWII the muslims have now numerical superiority.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
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lwd
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by lwd » Fri Jun 12, 2009 1:43 pm

Lutscha wrote:Looking at our history and at today I think the negative effecst outweight the positive by far.
I'm not at all convinced. One of the problems is when religion goes wrong it tends to do so spectacularly. When it gets things right things tend to be very smooth. One can easily see analogies with what's reported on the nightly news.

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Re: The future of Europe

Post by Bgile » Fri Jun 12, 2009 2:20 pm

Karl Heidenreich wrote:Osama (sorry, Obama)
OK this makes me really angry and I need to stop contributing here before I say something I will regret.

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Re: The future of Europe

Post by Karl Heidenreich » Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:28 pm

Bgile,

Don´t get angry. It´s not your fault that Obama went to Middle East and offered them a surrender of the western ways to those of them. It´s in the newspapers: he went to the extreme to ask the Europeans not to forbid the islamic "refugees" to force their women to use a veil over their faces. Now the "displaced" people dictate what the western countries must or musn´t do and Obama agrees with that. And to be honest the Pope is doing the same: he is betraying what the West has fought for centuries in the name of world peace. Ok. Let´s have peace by surrender. Both, Obama and the Pope are good agents of islam in the West. Sorry, it´s the truth.

Sometimes I have been very angry for things other have posted and kept posting... well, except at the begining of this year but here I´m again.

Best regards,

Karl
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
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Karl Heidenreich
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by Karl Heidenreich » Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:48 am

In case of doubt please follow this link:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31363740/ns ... york_times

If this guy get his way with 60+% of the votes is because the people believe in him and the ideology behind him. And he denies the Holocaust. What can we expect? That people will respect the western ways? I think not.

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An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill

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RF
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by RF » Fri Sep 18, 2009 7:31 am

Turning this thread back to where it started, there is currently a second referendum to be held in the Republic of Ireland on the Lisbon Treaty. Eire is currently the only EU country that is allowing its people a vote on this, a country whose population amounts to less than one per cent of the total EU population.
This is hardly an expression of EU wide democracy. Our own Labour government promised us Brits a referendum, then found all sorts of excuses not to hold it. The opposition Conservative Party has promised also to have a referendum - but under such terms and caveats that they can get out of holding it if they came to office, as in reality they have no real intention of holding it; they tell the electorate they oppose the Treaty, whereas when push comes to shove they support it just like Labour.
In Eire much of the opposition to the Treaty is being airbrushed off the Irish media, although I was amused to see that Nigel Farage of UKIP managed to get on to RTE....
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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