Obama or McCain - who would you vote for?

[RF]

Obama is a very unusual person. "Just another Democrat" probably would not be capable of accomplishing as much. He is also a black man. If you are a right wing radical, that is a very bad thing. So you try to kill him. Powell's wife opposed his running for President for that very reason.

I think that to run for President you have to be an unusual type of person, as you are in the public and media eye.

I have already commented on the stereo-typing of Obama being called ''black'' when in fact he is not empirically that colour. We seem to have a society that abhors racism but still makes issues of skin colour which in the case of Obama are not even accurate.

It is also an unfortunate fact that US Presidents become the target of every nutter out to make a name for themselves, by trying to assassinate. But this is faced by any President, whatever their skin colour or politics. That is the job of the secret service to sort out.

[RF]

See, this is why I dont like threads in the forum about politics.

But its not the politics in itself that is the problem. The problem are the stereotyping of individuals and atitudes/issues.

Suppose Condaleeza Rice put up for the Republican nomination. She is ''black'', she is a woman, she comes from the deep south and she is ''right wing.'' Now here we have a quite an assortment of contradictions, impossible to imagine really back in the days when ''nobody is going to out-nigger George Wallace.''

She would have been my choice for US President. Nothing to do with skin colour, or gender, just simply the best for the job. The fact that if elected she would of course be the first woman, the first ''black'' President might be for the record books. But would southern Republicans and indeed Democrats vote for her? Especially if her Democrat opponent was a ''left-wing white radical?'' Are you really voting on politics or a media/predjudice image?

I vote on politics. If a pink three headed Triceratops was the best candidate for the job then the pink three headed Triceratops gets my vote. And I certainly would not be interested in discussions over a Triceratops being coloured pink.

[RF]

Let`s close this thread. Politics is rubbish. Let`s talk ships. Let`s talk... umhhh... how Yamato beats H41... or Montana? I`m mean...

Yes, politics may be rubbish to some people, but it is very relevant to all of us. And as this is the off topic section it is perhaps the place to discuss it without getting cluttered up with the Iowa's, Yamato's and of course the true star of the show, the battleship Bismarck.

And I would politely remind you Karl that you are not adverse to expressing political opinion in those sections which are not off-topic. Nothing wrong in that in my book, but you cannot escape politics on almost any issue - especially war. And on sending battleships into the Atlantic to prosecute a war being fought over politics.

And a society without politics is so usually because it lacks something else - freedom.

[Karl Heidenreich]

I said it, RF, because it´s worthless to continue discussing this US election here. In just a few days those that are allowed to vote in the US will do so and their decision would hit the CNN and Fox News screens with a reality that, like us or not, would be there at least for four years. So, let´s talk ships, and mid XX Century Politics.

[Bgile]

RF,

You may be politically colorblind, but that is not the case for a substantial portion of the US population, particularly in the southern states. For example, it's been shown in the past that people have told pollsters that they would vote for a certain black candidate because they were embarrassed to admit that they were racially predjudiced. When they got to the privacy of the voting booth, they voted for the white guy.

You are correct in saying it is dangerous to be a US President. It is also dangerous to be an influential black man, especially one in the public eye. There has never been an assassination attempt against a US President because he is white, but there have been a number of prominent public figures assassinated because they were black.

[lwd]

...particularly in the southern states.

Or not. I remmber reading acounts back in the 60s that both North and South were equally racist it's jsut that those in the South were more open about it.

For example, it's been shown in the past that people have told pollsters that they would vote for a certain black candidate because they were embarrassed to admit that they were racially predjudiced.

No it hasn'[t been shown. Statistics have pointed to there being a discrepancy between exit polls and results. The hypothesis of some is that this was due to people not wanting to admit who they actually voted for. Undoubtedly some did as you stated, some of it may also have been poor polling practice or jsut random ness, others may have been afraid to admit who they voted for. Racial violence in LA wasn't at all restricted to white on black.

.... It is also dangerous to be an influential black man, especially one in the public eye...

Really? At what level? I suspect that driving a car is a greater danger.

There has never been an assassination attempt against a US President because he is white,

REally? there's at least one that might have been or could be inerpreted that way. I'm not completly convinced this is important however. McCain's policies for instance could well put him at greater danger from terrorist than Obama's will. It's the total threat level that's important. It's not at all clear that Obama's will be higher.

but there have been a number of prominent public figures assassinated because they were black.

Which ones in the last 10 years? or last 20 for that matter. Now compare that to the number who die in auto accidents, or plane crashes, etc.

[Legend]

.... It is also dangerous to be an influential black man, especially one in the public eye...

Really? At what level? I suspect that driving a car is a greater danger.

Really? Are such comments necessary? If YOU had seen any of the debates or other public events where it is actually him talking, I would not be surprised to find you being impressed at his skill in talking politics, though you are hard to impress... always taking people's sentences apart and scrutinizing their every word.

Yes, Obama has a risk of becoming President, even though our country has destroyed segregation, some in the south object to the thought of a black president strongly, I should know, since I regretfully live in Virginia.

[RF]

There has been considerable discussion in Britain about how colourblind the British electorate really is, from the standpoint of the alleged lack of representation of ''ethnic minorities and women.''

But representation is increasing - slowly. I suspect that much the same will happen in the US, even in the Republican Party. Look for example at how even George Wallace moderated his views later in his political career - because it suited him when the ''black vote'' became more influential in election results. If Obama is elected - and if current polls are right he should be - then my point is proved.

[RF]

Yes, Obama has a risk of becoming President, even though our country has destroyed segregation, some in the south object to the thought of a black president strongly, I should know, since I regretfully live in Virginia.

The polls suggest Obama will win in Virginia, something even Jimmy Carter failed to do in 1976.

[Bgile]

There has been considerable discussion in Britain about how colourblind the British electorate really is, from the standpoint of the alleged lack of representation of ''ethnic minorities and women.''

But representation is increasing - slowly. I suspect that much the same will happen in the US, even in the Republican Party. Look for example at how even George Wallace moderated his views later in his political career - because it suited him when the ''black vote'' became more influential in election results. If Obama is elected - and if current polls are right he should be - then my point is proved.

Are there any people of color or women in Parliament? I honestly don't know.

Which of your points is proved by an Obama election? I think I missed it.

If Obama is elected I think he will owe it in to some degree to the economic disaster. That helped Clinton get elected. "It's the economy, stupid". There are a significant number of people here in the states who believe the war in Iraq was unnecessary and that it contributed greatly to the current economic situation. I realize that isn't true in this forum, and could be debated endlessly.

[lwd]

.... It is also dangerous to be an influential black man, especially one in the public eye...

Really? At what level? I suspect that driving a car is a greater danger.

Really? Are such comments necessary?

Yes. We see here assumptions being treated as facts and then used to support a postion. If you are building a structure you don't just take a random piece of wood and assume that it will hold up under the load. Debate is all about facts, logic, and reason.

If YOU had seen any of the debates or other public events where it is actually him talking, I would not be surprised to find you being impressed at his skill in talking politics, though you are hard to impress... always taking people's sentences apart and scrutinizing their every word.

I was very impressed the first time I heard him being interviewed on NPR. But just because some one is an impressive orator doesn't mean they'll be a "good" leader. There have been a number of historical figures that were impressive orators and bad leaders.

.., some in the south object to the thought of a black president strongly, I should know, since I regretfully live in Virginia.

My point is that sentances like this are an implied unproven slur on the South. There are in all probability people across the country who won't vote for him because of his African ancestry. There are also those who will vote for him because of it. It's not at all clear which group is in the majority.

[Vic Dale]

Obama is a master of the poitical debate.

Like the best of them he can speak for hours and say nothing of substance.

Vic Dale

[Bgile]

Obama is a master of the poitical debate.

Like the best of them he can speak for hours and say nothing of substance.

Vic Dale

Vic,

I believe you've said in the past that you think all politicians are evil. I concede that's not a direct quote, but something to that effect.

I'm curious how you would propose a country be organized and run. Realistically, not some silly utopia that won't fit actual human nature.

[lwd]

Without politics no group can function. At least for any length of time and the bigger the group the greater the need.

[Legend]

.., some in the south object to the thought of a black president strongly, I should know, since I regretfully live in Virginia.

My point is that sentances like this are an implied unproven slur on the South. There are in all probability people across the country who won't vote for him because of his African ancestry. There are also those who will vote for him because of it. It's not at all clear which group is in the majority.

You know, I just want to clear this little bit and then I will stop hounding this topic with the citizens of the internet. I live in Virginia, specifically the capitol of the southern states (Richmond) during our most regretful war for this country, The American Civil War. For the most part the population here consists of young ignorant children (who have no form of respect of others equal to or lower than they are due to their rich parents providing them with their every wish), their parents (who are rich, arrogant, rednecks), and others who are not willing to stick their necks out for anyone (from a poor homeless person to our country itself). I was born and raised in New York, where my heart lives to this day. To your words above, yes, I am kind of slurring the South, and have every right to if I wish since I am a resident of it, ha ha. End of that discussion

I am supporting the person who seems to have the better mix of charicteristics; smartest (your pick), best social skills (Obama by far), most experience (McCain), best looking ( just kidding), and the one who seems to be able to make the right decision when the critical moment comes (your pick). I personally think Obama is better suited, but that's just one person...