Today 68 years ago

[marcelo_malara]

September 1st, 1939. The German troops invaded Poland, starting World War Two, the most bloody war ever. So bloody in fact that the previous "Great War" had to be renamed just as "World War One".
When I was a kid and started reading about WWII, I used to ask myself "why World War", if not every country fought in it. Then after much reading I understand why: it was fought in every continent and every sea, the farthest corners of the world were reached, from Cape North to the Aleutians. Even here in Argentina we were touched by it in December 1939 by the River Plate battle, one of the intervening ships lying now in the bottom, just only a dangerous wreck buoy.
It was also fought with every mean imaginable, from foot soldiers and bolt action rifles to antiship guided missiles and jet aircraft. The widespread devastation in Europe and the Far East is just mindboggling. My respect to all the dead, civilian and military alike, but more to the very young people that died for their countries (right or wrong) and lost the chance to get older, rise a family and enjoy life.

Regards to all

[Gary]

I agree with that Marcelo

[Bgile]

Well said.

[RF]

As an aside here, some US authors such as Dupoy describe the start of WW2 as being the Marco Polo bridge incident which triggered the full scale Japanese invasion of China in 1937.

Many British writers have 3rd September 1939 as the start date, while in Russia it started on 22nd June 1941.

And if you follow the thinking of Marshall Foch it started in 1914 with a twenty year ''time out'' in the middle.

[RF]

.
When I was a kid and started reading about WWII, I used to ask myself "why World War", if not every country fought in it.
Regards to all

By 1945 almost every country was involved in WW2, as many countries that eventually declared war on the Axis did so when they knew they wouldn't be in the front line. Argentina under Peron was one of the few that didn't, along with Eire, Spain and Sweden.

In fact by April 1945 every Latin American country was at war with Germany except for Argentina, even Paraguay and Bolivia joined in.

[RF]

And incidently Marcelo, you didn't mention the German U-boat that sailed to Argentina at the end of the war.....

[marcelo_malara]

Robert, Argentina declared war on Germany in April, because of the international pressure I think.

[Karl Heidenreich]

September 1st is the official date. It became a World War, I suggest, when Germany invaded Russia. Before that it was an European War between Germany and Great Britain because there was no more war against France or Belgium or Poland in order they were all defeated and had surrendered.
The validation of the World War title comes when US came into the war and, obviously, when the Pacific Theatre became open.

But I was wondering, the people LIVING BY THE TIME, they called the war, World War?

[RF]

Robert, Argentina declared war on Germany in April, because of the international pressure I think.

There was international pressure because the Allies did not want neutral countries to become bolt holes for war criminals - particulary countries where people could disappear into remote interiors. Indeed this is exactly what happened with Mengele and Eichmann etc.

I had thought Argentina had the record in South America for the longest period of continous peace, that of the 112 years between 1870 and 1982,
except for Venezuela which I believe never has been at war with anybody.

Brazil declared war on Germany in both world wars, in October 1917 and again in August 1942, on both occasions when German U-boats sank Brazilian ships. Shipping losses to U-boats also caused Colombia and Mexico to declare war on Germany in 1942.

With respect to Brazil there was also the ''diplomatic incident'' in Tokyo in January 1942 when the ambassador there was kidnapped and assaulted by the Kempeitai, the Japanese version of the Gestapo.

[RF]

September 1st is the official date. It became a World War, I suggest, when Germany invaded Russia. Before that it was an European War between Germany and Great Britain because there was no more war against France or Belgium or Poland in order they were all defeated and had surrendered.
The validation of the World War title comes when US came into the war and, obviously, when the Pacific Theatre became open.

Is it not the case that this ''confusion'' is caused due to WW2 actually being two separate wars which happened at the same time, started independently of each other but became linked as they spread.....

[Karl Heidenreich]

RF:

There is always confusion in these matters. There are people who still believe a lot of myths and misconceptions of so great an event:
1. The allies were all good (including Stalin the Butcher or Mao the Mass Murderer or Bomber Harris, etc. etc. etc.) and they made a joint effort to defeat evil Hitler and his bunch of thugs. When the correct apreciation is that Russia from it´s side with the industrial and economical help of US fought the Germans while the US, Canadian and British did their fight on their side. Many other countries, specially Poland, gave some help but the burden to defeat Nazi Germany was an Anglo-American enterprise in which De Gaulle or the Crown Prince of Holland were mere propaganda figures to convince the peoples of those countries to help the US-Brit troops.
2. All the crimes against humanity were commited by the Axis powers. The crimes against the civilian populations of Germany, Italy or Japan were: bi product of the neo nazi propaganda (or a Ku Klux Klan conspiracy) or didn´t happened. (If you say that the Holocaust was an allied set up then you go to jail in Germany. But to say that the incendiary raid on Dresden was just an strategic measure or burning Tokio was an act of practical military necessity then you are the image of historical common sense). It´s like to say that only the Iowa Class Battleships are invincible while British, German, Italian or Japanese Battleships are inferior vessels...
3. Did I have to continue?

[RF]

No.

I might add to your point 2 above that not all the Axis powers commited war crimes. The Finns certainly didn't and indeed were the only European Axis country to keep out the German extermination squads killing Jews.

The Romanians also strictly adhered to the Geneva Convention in the areas of the Soviet Union occupied by them (Bessarabia and Odessa, in the latter they prevented the Germans from sending thousands of Russian POWs to slave labour camps by putting them in their own POW camps).

On the other hand, other Axis countries were worse than the Germans or Japanese - the Croations committed appalling massacres in parts of Yugoslavia which fuelled the conflicts of the 1990's.

As a further aside one matter almost completely ignored by the historians was the conflict in Ethiopia between 1936 and 1940.
Whilst the Italian invasion was ''officially'' completed in May 1936, a full scale guerilla war ensued against the Italians for the next four years, with both sides taking/shooting hostages amongst numerous other crimes, including continued use of mustard gas.

[Karl Heidenreich]

RF:

Thanks a lot for that info, valuable indeed...

Kind regards...

[RF]

Another aspect that can be mentioned in this thread is that the European Union, for its own political purposes, is now attempting to rebrand the First World War as a European Civil War.

This rebranding is a nonsense, but it no doubt will be taught to the next generation in the schools of EU countries. Attempts to ridicule the rebranding by UK MEP's in the Eurpean Parliament were met by the usual suppression of free speech in that chamber, by turning the speakers microphone off and the ruling anti-EU motions as out of order.