Bgile wrote:
Many of the posters seem to think that every aspect of Bismarck represents the ultimate in battleship construction
No.
Many posters on this site take extreme and inflexible positions, either supporting the apparent USN is superior to everything view as outlined by Karl, or the view I have just quoted.
I don't subscribe to either standpoint but take a more even handed view.
There are also a substantial number of posters on this forum who evidently have no interest in the Bismarck but pursue their own hobbyhorses in threads not even concerned with naval warfare.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
RF wrote: ...Many posters on this site take extreme and inflexible positions, either supporting the apparent USN is superior to everything view as outlined by Karl, or the view I have just quoted.
....
I'd say there are just a few that do so although they tend to be prolific. The problem is that many who argue vs the extreme positions get catagorized as having the opposite extreme position. This is compounded by the tendency that once one gets in a debate (perhaps argument is a better word) of this nature the post tend to get more one sided on everyones part.
dunmunro wrote:
The 15" shell that struck PoW underwater was nowhere near her magazines. If the shell's fuse functioned properly it would have detonated well before reaching PoW's hull.
As I understand it an 8 inch shell from Prinz Eugen penetrated into the secondary magazine for the POW's 5.25 inch guns and failed to explode. The shell apparently was later thrown overboard.
The secondary magazines are far below the waterline, below the MAD.
An 8" shell penetrated into a 5.25" handling room, (basically a barbette) and while it would have caused problems if it exploded, it would not have endangered the magazines.
Gentlemen,
The object of these forums is discussion on various subjects, mainly about Bismarck. Everyone has an opinion and rightly so, but it is a little sad to see some of these exchanges getting rather heated. There is little doubt that at the very begining of WW2 Germany probably had the best equiped army and air force in the world and even later on produced some fabulous aircraft and tanks.
All her ships from heavy cruisers, pocket battleships, the twins and Bismarck & Tirpitz were some of the most up to date and powerful of their kind, but lacked the sheer numbers that the RN could put out to counter them, so I think it was inevitable that the RN would pit two (or more)against one wherever possible. What happened to Hood at Denmark Strait was typical of what happened at Jutland when Beattys Battlecruisers encountered German Battleships. As Karl has said, PoW was taking a hiding, therefore did the only sensible thing she could do and got herself out of the battle. Lutjens, like other German commanders before him was under orders not to engage enemy battleships unless forced to and he also did the sensible thing and did not pursue PoW. Had he done so he would have used a huge amount of precious ammunition trying to get PoW to sink and may possibly received further damage in return - damage he could ill afford to receive if he was to carry out his original mission of commerce raiding.
I know much of this is 'preaching to the converted' especially as most of the contributers have far greater knowlege than me, but myths and legends are all prone to exaggeration; without doubt Bismarck was one of the finest ships of her time and on her day could probably have taken on almost anything that was sent against her on a one to one basis, but when your enemy has numerical superiority sooner or later she was bound to be caught and sunk, even Admirals Raeder and Donitz realised this.
It is good that the presentation of the kbismarck webpage now shows Ernst Lindemann's address:
This ship, our ship, as we can call it from this day forth, is the largest, the strongest and the best battleship that has ever been launched by any German or foreign shipyard.
A true statement of a fighting captain of a real fighting ship.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. Sir Winston Churchill
Rheinubung was originally intended to be a four ship operation rather than just two.
And yes, Bismarck was engaged against a numerically superior enemy because there was no available backup. Heroic, yes against impossible odds. But perhaps not as heroic in effect as Sir Richard Grenville was in HMS Revenge when he took on single handed some 15 Spanish Galleons......
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
RF wrote:... And yes, Bismarck was engaged against a numerically superior enemy because there was no available backup. Heroic, yes against impossible odds. ......
Looks quite comparable to Renown engaging the Twins on her own to me. Although Renown may have had more choice in the matter.
Heroism as well as cowardice are not monopolized by a single nation. European, Asian and North American nations which had a long History of conflicts can boast of examples of both of them. Great Britain has a great deal of heroic acts as well as Spain, Russia or the United States.
In this particular case we have been studying the Bismarck and the brave acts of those that fought for her and those that fought against her. In this episode we can say that both sides were up to the expectations of their nations.
Lindemann's remarks are very clear of what a naval leader must be. Bismarck's accomplishments are no myth, they were real: wrecks on the bottom of the sea are evidence of this.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. Sir Winston Churchill
Karl Heidenreich wrote:
Heroism as well as cowardice are not monopolized by a single nation.
I never suggested or infered otherwise.
By context and reference to Sir Richard Grenville I do have the feeling that Lutjens and Lindemann might have got a little more out of Bismarck than they did.
At DS for example if Lutjens had not delayed opening fire would he have sunk Hood before POW found Bismarck's range and hit her?
And on 27 May again if some of the main armament gun crews had been allowed some proper sleep and Lutjens again didn't delay opening fire on Rodney, what would have happened if Bismarck clobbered Rodney with heavy hits first? The end result would have been the same but with greater loss to the British. And of course there was that chance on 27 May to have sunk Norfolk.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
Karl Heidenreich wrote:[Also we have the numerous facts on the superiority of Yamato, which, point by point, has not been addressed only with superficial notions such as trying to make believe that the Japanese behemoth was vulnerable to USN's 16" at ranges in which no ship has an IZ against another one.
A picture is worth a thousand words. Look at the photo at the bottom of pg 12 in this thread:
