Group North and Group West

[Patrick McWilliams]

Hello all,

Is anyone aware of a map that shows each of the above group's operational areas? My reason for asking is that Bismarck came under the control of Group West during the dash for Brest and I was wondering where and when that took place, and the "dividing line" or quadrant the ship crossed into to do so?

It also occurs to me that as Lutjens' ill-judged radio report went to Group West in France, that group's area must have extended reasonably far into the north-west of the Atlantic Ocean, given that Bismarck had many hours' steaming ahead of her at the time.

Another indication of how unfortunate Bismarck was might be the fact that if that fateful message had been sent while under the command of Group North (perhaps only a matter of a few hours earlier), Harry Hinsley would not have determined that the receiving station was in France. Bismarck *might, therefore, have had a reasonably good chance of reaching the French coast undetected or not detected until it was too late for the British. As it was, I believe Hinsley's superiors took some convincing that Bismarck was heading for France.

Of course, this is all speculation and the sending of the message itself remains the critical blunder.

[marcelo_malara]

Hello all,

Is anyone aware of a map that shows each of the above group's operational areas? My reason for asking is that Bismarck came under the control of Group West during the dash for Brest and I was wondering where and when that took place, and the "dividing line" or quadrant the ship crossed into to do so?

It also occurs to me that as Lutjens' ill-judged radio report went to Group West in France, that group's area must have extended reasonably far into the north-west of the Atlantic Ocean, given that Bismarck had many hours' steaming ahead of her at the time.

Another indication of how unfortunate Bismarck was might be the fact that if that fateful message had been sent while under the command of Group North (perhaps only a matter of a few hours earlier), Harry Hinsley would not have determined that the receiving station was in France. Bismarck *might, therefore, have had a reasonably good chance of reaching the French coast undetected or not detected until it was too late for the British. As it was, I believe Hinsley's superiors took some convincing that Bismarck was heading for France.

Of course, this is all speculation and the sending of the message itself remains the critical blunder.

Hi! Found this.

[Patrick McWilliams]

Thank you Marcello!

I'll look at a larger map and see if I can project that line of latitude (or quadrant edge) at the north of Scotland westward into the Atlantic and see where it goes (south of Iceland, I imagine). Since my post earlier, I've seen that the message to Group West came earlier than I remembered. Best regards.

[hans zurbriggen]

Hello Mr. McWilliams,
Baron von Mullenheim-Rechberg and J. Brennecke in their books say that Group North would have already passed control of operation to Group West exactly at 12 on May 24, that look anyway more or less in line with map posted by Mr. Malara or even more to North.
It looks like it was a predefined decision, not strictly linked with geographical control zones.

hans

[petroben]

Hello,

I share your interest in the operational areas during Bismarck's dash for Brest. While I don't have a specific map to reference, you might find detailed naval history archives or books that delve into the specifics of Group West's operational boundaries during that period. The timing of Lutjens' radio report indeed played a pivotal role, and your observations about the potential impact of different circumstances are intriguing.

If you haven't already, consider exploring naval history forums or contacting experts in the field who might have access to more detailed information on Group West's operational reach during the relevant timeframe.

Best regards,

[Patrick McWilliams]

Thank you for clarifying that point, Hans.

Hence my comments about the "dividing line" between Groups North and West are not particularly relevant to Bismarck.

[Patrick McWilliams]

Hello,

I share your interest in the operational areas during Bismarck's dash for Brest. While I don't have a specific map to reference, you might find detailed naval history archives or books that delve into the specifics of Group West's operational boundaries during that period. The timing of Lutjens' radio report indeed played a pivotal role, and your observations about the potential impact of different circumstances are intriguing.

If you haven't already, consider exploring naval history forums or contacting experts in the field who might have access to more detailed information on Group West's operational reach during the relevant timeframe.

Best regards,

Hello Petroben, I think the key point made in comments here is Bismarck having come under the operational control of Group West at a specific time as opposed to when the ship crossed a certain line of latitude or longitude. Hence the operational reach of the two groups is of less importance now but would still be interesting to see. Regards.

[marcelo_malara]

Hello,

I share your interest in the operational areas during Bismarck's dash for Brest. While I don't have a specific map to reference, you might find detailed naval history archives or books that delve into the specifics of Group West's operational boundaries during that period. The timing of Lutjens' radio report indeed played a pivotal role, and your observations about the potential impact of different circumstances are intriguing.

If you haven't already, consider exploring naval history forums or contacting experts in the field who might have access to more detailed information on Group West's operational reach during the relevant timeframe.

Best regards,

This is a little harsh. Around here there is knowledgeable people. Rarely a question goes by unanswered.

Regards

[Herr Nilsson]

The official border between Group North and West for Rheinübung was the line from the southern tip of Greenland to the northern tip of the Hebrides. If this line was crossed, a message should be made to the groups, which triggered the transfer of command.

Based on the intercepted shadowings reports, Group West calculated a crossing of the 60° latitude line at approximately 2 p.m. on May 24th. Group West then suggested to Group North at 9:30 a.m. a transfer of command at 12 p.m. Group North communicated this to the fleet at 11 a.m. A message from Lütjens was no longer necessary.

[Patrick McWilliams]

The official border between Group North and West for Rheinübung was the line from the southern tip of Greenland to the northern tip of the Hebrides. If this line was crossed, a message should be made to the groups, which triggered the transfer of command.

Based on the intercepted shadowings reports, Group West calculated a crossing of the 60° latitude line at approximately 2 p.m. on May 24th. Group West then suggested to Group North at 9:30 a.m. a transfer of command at 12 p.m. Group North communicated this to the fleet at 11 a.m. A message from Lütjens was no longer necessary.

Thank you for this, Marc

[hans zurbriggen]

Hello Mr. Nilsson,

when you say: "Based on the intercepted shadowings reports, Group West calculated a crossing of the 60° latitude line at approximately 2 p.m. on May 24th. Group West then suggested to Group North at 9:30 a.m. a transfer of command at 12 p.m. Group North communicated this to the fleet at 11 a.m. A message from Lütjens was no longer necessary."

it should read "...a transfer of command at 12 a.m...." instead of "... a transfer of command at 12 p.m." , meaning a transfer at noon on May 24.
Is this correct?

hans

[Herr Nilsson]

AFAIK 12 a.m. is midnight and 12 p.m. is noon. To make it simple it should read 12:00 h or noon

[hans zurbriggen]

Thanks Mr.Nilsson, I ignored that.

hans