Group North and Group West
Moderator: Bill Jurens
- Patrick McWilliams
- Member
- Posts: 117
- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 2:17 pm
Group North and Group West
Hello all,
Is anyone aware of a map that shows each of the above group's operational areas? My reason for asking is that Bismarck came under the control of Group West during the dash for Brest and I was wondering where and when that took place, and the "dividing line" or quadrant the ship crossed into to do so?
It also occurs to me that as Lutjens' ill-judged radio report went to Group West in France, that group's area must have extended reasonably far into the north-west of the Atlantic Ocean, given that Bismarck had many hours' steaming ahead of her at the time.
Another indication of how unfortunate Bismarck was might be the fact that if that fateful message had been sent while under the command of Group North (perhaps only a matter of a few hours earlier), Harry Hinsley would not have determined that the receiving station was in France. Bismarck *might, therefore, have had a reasonably good chance of reaching the French coast undetected or not detected until it was too late for the British. As it was, I believe Hinsley's superiors took some convincing that Bismarck was heading for France.
Of course, this is all speculation and the sending of the message itself remains the critical blunder.
Is anyone aware of a map that shows each of the above group's operational areas? My reason for asking is that Bismarck came under the control of Group West during the dash for Brest and I was wondering where and when that took place, and the "dividing line" or quadrant the ship crossed into to do so?
It also occurs to me that as Lutjens' ill-judged radio report went to Group West in France, that group's area must have extended reasonably far into the north-west of the Atlantic Ocean, given that Bismarck had many hours' steaming ahead of her at the time.
Another indication of how unfortunate Bismarck was might be the fact that if that fateful message had been sent while under the command of Group North (perhaps only a matter of a few hours earlier), Harry Hinsley would not have determined that the receiving station was in France. Bismarck *might, therefore, have had a reasonably good chance of reaching the French coast undetected or not detected until it was too late for the British. As it was, I believe Hinsley's superiors took some convincing that Bismarck was heading for France.
Of course, this is all speculation and the sending of the message itself remains the critical blunder.
- marcelo_malara
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1852
- Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:14 pm
- Location: buenos aires
Re: Group North and Group West
Hi! Found this.Patrick McWilliams wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 6:25 pm Hello all,
Is anyone aware of a map that shows each of the above group's operational areas? My reason for asking is that Bismarck came under the control of Group West during the dash for Brest and I was wondering where and when that took place, and the "dividing line" or quadrant the ship crossed into to do so?
It also occurs to me that as Lutjens' ill-judged radio report went to Group West in France, that group's area must have extended reasonably far into the north-west of the Atlantic Ocean, given that Bismarck had many hours' steaming ahead of her at the time.
Another indication of how unfortunate Bismarck was might be the fact that if that fateful message had been sent while under the command of Group North (perhaps only a matter of a few hours earlier), Harry Hinsley would not have determined that the receiving station was in France. Bismarck *might, therefore, have had a reasonably good chance of reaching the French coast undetected or not detected until it was too late for the British. As it was, I believe Hinsley's superiors took some convincing that Bismarck was heading for France.
Of course, this is all speculation and the sending of the message itself remains the critical blunder.
- Patrick McWilliams
- Member
- Posts: 117
- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 2:17 pm
Re: Group North and Group West
Thank you Marcello!
I'll look at a larger map and see if I can project that line of latitude (or quadrant edge) at the north of Scotland westward into the Atlantic and see where it goes (south of Iceland, I imagine). Since my post earlier, I've seen that the message to Group West came earlier than I remembered. Best regards.
I'll look at a larger map and see if I can project that line of latitude (or quadrant edge) at the north of Scotland westward into the Atlantic and see where it goes (south of Iceland, I imagine). Since my post earlier, I've seen that the message to Group West came earlier than I remembered. Best regards.
- hans zurbriggen
- Senior Member
- Posts: 425
- Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2019 8:15 am
Re: Group North and Group West
Hello Mr. McWilliams,
Baron von Mullenheim-Rechberg and J. Brennecke in their books say that Group North would have already passed control of operation to Group West exactly at 12 on May 24, that look anyway more or less in line with map posted by Mr. Malara or even more to North.
It looks like it was a predefined decision, not strictly linked with geographical control zones.
hans
Baron von Mullenheim-Rechberg and J. Brennecke in their books say that Group North would have already passed control of operation to Group West exactly at 12 on May 24, that look anyway more or less in line with map posted by Mr. Malara or even more to North.
It looks like it was a predefined decision, not strictly linked with geographical control zones.
hans
Re: Group North and Group West
Hello,
I share your interest in the operational areas during Bismarck's dash for Brest. While I don't have a specific map to reference, you might find detailed naval history archives or books that delve into the specifics of Group West's operational boundaries during that period. The timing of Lutjens' radio report indeed played a pivotal role, and your observations about the potential impact of different circumstances are intriguing.
If you haven't already, consider exploring naval history forums or contacting experts in the field who might have access to more detailed information on Group West's operational reach during the relevant timeframe.
Best regards,
I share your interest in the operational areas during Bismarck's dash for Brest. While I don't have a specific map to reference, you might find detailed naval history archives or books that delve into the specifics of Group West's operational boundaries during that period. The timing of Lutjens' radio report indeed played a pivotal role, and your observations about the potential impact of different circumstances are intriguing.
If you haven't already, consider exploring naval history forums or contacting experts in the field who might have access to more detailed information on Group West's operational reach during the relevant timeframe.
Best regards,
- Patrick McWilliams
- Member
- Posts: 117
- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 2:17 pm
Re: Group North and Group West
Thank you for clarifying that point, Hans.
Hence my comments about the "dividing line" between Groups North and West are not particularly relevant to Bismarck.
Hence my comments about the "dividing line" between Groups North and West are not particularly relevant to Bismarck.
- Patrick McWilliams
- Member
- Posts: 117
- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 2:17 pm
Re: Group North and Group West
Hello Petroben, I think the key point made in comments here is Bismarck having come under the operational control of Group West at a specific time as opposed to when the ship crossed a certain line of latitude or longitude. Hence the operational reach of the two groups is of less importance now but would still be interesting to see. Regards.petroben wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 5:27 am Hello,
I share your interest in the operational areas during Bismarck's dash for Brest. While I don't have a specific map to reference, you might find detailed naval history archives or books that delve into the specifics of Group West's operational boundaries during that period. The timing of Lutjens' radio report indeed played a pivotal role, and your observations about the potential impact of different circumstances are intriguing.
If you haven't already, consider exploring naval history forums or contacting experts in the field who might have access to more detailed information on Group West's operational reach during the relevant timeframe.
Best regards,
- marcelo_malara
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1852
- Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:14 pm
- Location: buenos aires
Re: Group North and Group West
This is a little harsh. Around here there is knowledgeable people. Rarely a question goes by unanswered.petroben wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 5:27 am Hello,
I share your interest in the operational areas during Bismarck's dash for Brest. While I don't have a specific map to reference, you might find detailed naval history archives or books that delve into the specifics of Group West's operational boundaries during that period. The timing of Lutjens' radio report indeed played a pivotal role, and your observations about the potential impact of different circumstances are intriguing.
If you haven't already, consider exploring naval history forums or contacting experts in the field who might have access to more detailed information on Group West's operational reach during the relevant timeframe.
Best regards,
Regards
- Herr Nilsson
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1586
- Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am
- Location: Germany
Re: Group North and Group West
The official border between Group North and West for Rheinübung was the line from the southern tip of Greenland to the northern tip of the Hebrides. If this line was crossed, a message should be made to the groups, which triggered the transfer of command.
Based on the intercepted shadowings reports, Group West calculated a crossing of the 60° latitude line at approximately 2 p.m. on May 24th. Group West then suggested to Group North at 9:30 a.m. a transfer of command at 12 p.m. Group North communicated this to the fleet at 11 a.m. A message from Lütjens was no longer necessary.
Based on the intercepted shadowings reports, Group West calculated a crossing of the 60° latitude line at approximately 2 p.m. on May 24th. Group West then suggested to Group North at 9:30 a.m. a transfer of command at 12 p.m. Group North communicated this to the fleet at 11 a.m. A message from Lütjens was no longer necessary.
Regards
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
- Patrick McWilliams
- Member
- Posts: 117
- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 2:17 pm
Re: Group North and Group West
Thank you for this, MarcHerr Nilsson wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 9:41 am The official border between Group North and West for Rheinübung was the line from the southern tip of Greenland to the northern tip of the Hebrides. If this line was crossed, a message should be made to the groups, which triggered the transfer of command.
Based on the intercepted shadowings reports, Group West calculated a crossing of the 60° latitude line at approximately 2 p.m. on May 24th. Group West then suggested to Group North at 9:30 a.m. a transfer of command at 12 p.m. Group North communicated this to the fleet at 11 a.m. A message from Lütjens was no longer necessary.
- hans zurbriggen
- Senior Member
- Posts: 425
- Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2019 8:15 am
Re: Group North and Group West
Hello Mr. Nilsson,
Is this correct?
hans
it should read "...a transfer of command at 12 a.m...." instead of "... a transfer of command at 12 p.m." , meaning a transfer at noon on May 24.when you say: "Based on the intercepted shadowings reports, Group West calculated a crossing of the 60° latitude line at approximately 2 p.m. on May 24th. Group West then suggested to Group North at 9:30 a.m. a transfer of command at 12 p.m. Group North communicated this to the fleet at 11 a.m. A message from Lütjens was no longer necessary."
Is this correct?
hans
- Herr Nilsson
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1586
- Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am
- Location: Germany
Re: Group North and Group West
AFAIK 12 a.m. is midnight and 12 p.m. is noon. To make it simple it should read 12:00 h or noon
Regards
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
- hans zurbriggen
- Senior Member
- Posts: 425
- Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2019 8:15 am
Re: Group North and Group West
Thanks Mr.Nilsson, I ignored that.
hans
hans