How close was the final battle?

[Mustang]

The issue is that testing on actual armour, shows the 14in AP shell being able to penetrate Bismarck's belt armour at ~1400fps, at 30deg striking angle. Again, where did you derive a penetration of ~10in?

The other table posted gives other values. You can ignore mine. But it doesn't penetrate.

The UK 14in AP shell is 90lb (40kg) heavier than the USN 14in shell and it was tested against actual armour identical to that on Bismarck. The table you're referring to shows the USN shell penetrating 10in of German at 35 degrees at less than 1300fps. It also shows the USN 14in shell penetrating 14in of German armour at 1770fps.

That's fine, it doesn't help the KGV. I see nothing to discuss here.

[dunmunro]

The other table posted gives other values. You can ignore mine. But it doesn't penetrate.

The UK 14in AP shell is 90lb (40kg) heavier than the USN 14in shell and it was tested against actual armour identical to that on Bismarck. The table you're referring to shows the USN shell penetrating 10in of German at 35 degrees at less than 1300fps. It also shows the USN 14in shell penetrating 14in of German armour at 1770fps.

That's fine, it doesn't help the KGV. I see nothing to discuss here.

I see quite a bit to discuss, since you've clearly made some mistakes in your assumed armour penetration values.

[Mustang]

The UK 14in AP shell is 90lb (40kg) heavier than the USN 14in shell and it was tested against actual armour identical to that on Bismarck. The table you're referring to shows the USN shell penetrating 10in of German at 35 degrees at less than 1300fps. It also shows the USN 14in shell penetrating 14in of German armour at 1770fps.

That's fine, it doesn't help the KGV. I see nothing to discuss here.

I see quite a bit to discuss, since you've clearly made some mistakes in your assumed armour penetration values.

I am done replying if there is no point here. The 14in guns will not penetrate the citadel.

[dunmunro]

That's fine, it doesn't help the KGV. I see nothing to discuss here.

I see quite a bit to discuss, since you've clearly made some mistakes in your assumed armour penetration values.

I am done replying if there is no point here. The 14in guns will not penetrate the citadel.

This discussion began and seemed to centre around the hit claimed by Norfolk at ~0902. This hit was not on the citadel. Bismarck's citadel armour is a layered array, and penetration of both armour layers of the array would be difficult to achieve for either 14 or 16in gun. OTOH, penetration of the external belt armour was easily achievable by either gun. The fact that there's few observed penetrations on the belt is due to the fact that Bismarck was very low in the water with most of the ~13in portion of the belt submerged and the seastate prevented AP shells shells from striking the armour without striking a wave first. Additionally there are large parts of the belt (and below the belt such as where PoW's 14in hit struck below the belt armour) that cannot be imaged.

[Mustang]

This hit was not on the citadel

In that case I would be an easy shot and you're correct, otherwise the KGV would be ineffective.

In either case bismarck could just kill both ships before they got into range and that was the actual issue as I said.

[dunmunro]

Sorry if this has been asked before.

If the bismarcks salvo at 8:50 was a few meters closer, would it have struck the Rodney's fire control and won? The King George was weaker and would be at a disadvantage.

Was all of history decided by a few meters?

PoW was hit 7 times by KM 20.3 and 38cm shells. Her primary 14in FC was unaffected by these hits. Rodney also had considerable redundancy in her 16in FC systems and it would have taken many hits to have a fair probablility of disabling the 16in FC system.

Rodney had a fore and aft 16in DCT, either of which could take over control of the 16in guns. There was an additional director forward, atop the CT that could also direct the 16in guns.

[dunmunro]

This hit was not on the citadel

In that case I would be an easy shot and you're correct, otherwise the KGV would be ineffective.

In either case bismarck could just kill both ships before they got into range and that was the actual issue as I said.

KGV could penetrate any non-citadel armour at the actual ranges of the battle. Two of PoW's hits created a lot of damage and several thousands of tons of flooding on Bismarck without the need to penetrate the citadel.

[Mustang]

Sorry if this has been asked before.

If the bismarcks salvo at 8:50 was a few meters closer, would it have struck the Rodney's fire control and won? The King George was weaker and would be at a disadvantage.

Was all of history decided by a few meters?

PoW was hit 7 times by KM 20.3 and 28cm shells. Her primary 14in FC was unaffected by these hits. Rodney also had considerable redundancy in her 16in FC systems and it would have taken many hits to have a fair probablility of disabling the 16in FC system.

Rodney had a fore and aft 16in DCT, either of which could take over control of the 16in guns. There was an additional director forward, atop the CT that could also direct the 16in guns.

Point taken, we have no access to the schematics and cannot answer this question, but my estimation is that Rodney would never survive long enough. The bismarck would spot it 50km away (and probably did), fire at 36km and it would be disabled shortly. Again, this is a damage control and detection question so we have no way at all to answer it.

[dunmunro]

Sorry if this has been asked before.

If the bismarcks salvo at 8:50 was a few meters closer, would it have struck the Rodney's fire control and won? The King George was weaker and would be at a disadvantage.

Was all of history decided by a few meters?

PoW was hit 7 times by KM 20.3 and 28cm shells. Her primary 14in FC was unaffected by these hits. Rodney also had considerable redundancy in her 16in FC systems and it would have taken many hits to have a fair probablility of disabling the 16in FC system.

Rodney had a fore and aft 16in DCT, either of which could take over control of the 16in guns. There was an additional director forward, atop the CT that could also direct the 16in guns.

Point taken, we have no access to the schematics and cannot answer this question, but my estimation is that Rodney would never survive long enough. The bismarck would spot it 50km away (and probably did), fire at 36km and it would be disabled shortly. Again, this is a damage control and detection question so we have no way at all to answer it.

Bismarck engaged PoW at ~30km and her 38cm fire was completely inaccurate. Bismarck would probably have to fire her entire complement of 38cm AP shells to have even a small chance of scoring a hit beyond 30km range. Both KGV and Rodney had little to fear from long range hits even if they could be achieved, as they were very unlikely to be able penetrate the deck or turret armour at those ranges.

[Mustang]

PoW was hit 7 times by KM 20.3 and 28cm shells. Her primary 14in FC was unaffected by these hits. Rodney also had considerable redundancy in her 16in FC systems and it would have taken many hits to have a fair probablility of disabling the 16in FC system.

Rodney had a fore and aft 16in DCT, either of which could take over control of the 16in guns. There was an additional director forward, atop the CT that could also direct the 16in guns.

Point taken, we have no access to the schematics and cannot answer this question, but my estimation is that Rodney would never survive long enough. The bismarck would spot it 50km away (and probably did), fire at 36km and it would be disabled shortly. Again, this is a damage control and detection question so we have no way at all to answer it.

Bismarck engaged PoW at ~30km and her 38cm fire was completely inaccurate. Bismarck would probably have to fire her entire complement of 38cm AP shells to have even a small chance of scoring a hit beyond 30km range. Both KGV and Rodney had little to fear from long range hits even if they could be achieved, as they were very unlikely to be able penetrate the deck or turret armour at those ranges.

If that's the case then the gun accuracy was the sole issue and nothing else, if everything worked to spec then bismarck would easily win all engagements.

[dunmunro]

Point taken, we have no access to the schematics and cannot answer this question, but my estimation is that Rodney would never survive long enough. The bismarck would spot it 50km away (and probably did), fire at 36km and it would be disabled shortly. Again, this is a damage control and detection question so we have no way at all to answer it.

Bismarck engaged PoW at ~30km and her 38cm fire was completely inaccurate. Bismarck would probably have to fire her entire complement of 38cm AP shells to have even a small chance of scoring a hit beyond 30km range. Both KGV and Rodney had little to fear from long range hits even if they could be achieved, as they were very unlikely to be able penetrate the deck or turret armour at those ranges.

If that's the case then the gun accuracy was the sole issue and nothing else, if everything worked to spec then bismarck would easily win all engagements.

That doesn't follow. KGV and PoW had very modern FC systems and PoW seems to have performed well during her engagements except for the failure of of her FC radars. KGV's FC seems to have been very accurate during the engagement.

[Mustang]

Bismarck engaged PoW at ~30km and her 38cm fire was completely inaccurate. Bismarck would probably have to fire her entire complement of 38cm AP shells to have even a small chance of scoring a hit beyond 30km range. Both KGV and Rodney had little to fear from long range hits even if they could be achieved, as they were very unlikely to be able penetrate the deck or turret armour at those ranges.

If that's the case then the gun accuracy was the sole issue and nothing else, if everything worked to spec then bismarck would easily win all engagements.

That doesn't follow. KGV and PoW had very modern FC systems and PoW seems to have performed well during her engagements except for the failure of of her FC radars. KGV's FC seems to have been very accurate during the engagement.

That doesn't contest anything I said. If the guns and FC actually worked the bismarck would win easily, the other ships would never come in range.

[dunmunro]

If that's the case then the gun accuracy was the sole issue and nothing else, if everything worked to spec then bismarck would easily win all engagements.

That doesn't follow. KGV and PoW had very modern FC systems and PoW seems to have performed well during her engagements except for the failure of of her FC radars. KGV's FC seems to have been very accurate during the engagement.

That doesn't contest anything I said. If the guns and FC actually worked the bismarck would win easily, the other ships would never come in range.

Rodney actually outranged Bismarck whilst KGV's maximum range was only ~1000yds less than Bismarck, but these max ranges were quite irrelevant as no hits could be expected at those ranges.

At Denmark Straits, Bismarck had the advantage of a functioning radar ranging system, yet PoW's FC accuracy seem to have been very similar to Bismarck, and arguably superior at ~30km. With a fully functional FC radar systems and another few weeks of working up PoW would probably have been superior to Bismarck in accuracy of main battery fire.

[Mustang]

That doesn't follow. KGV and PoW had very modern FC systems and PoW seems to have performed well during her engagements except for the failure of of her FC radars. KGV's FC seems to have been very accurate during the engagement.

That doesn't contest anything I said. If the guns and FC actually worked the bismarck would win easily, the other ships would never come in range.

Rodney actually outranged Bismarck whilst KGV's maximum range was only ~1000yds less than Bismarck, but these max ranges were quite irrelevant as no hits could be expected at those ranges.

At Denmark Straits, Bismarck had the advantage of a functioning radar ranging system, yet PoW's FC accuracy seem to have been very similar to Bismarck, and arguably superior at ~30km. With a fully functional FC radar systems and another few weeks of working up PoW would probably have been superior to Bismarck in accuracy of main battery fire.

True, but they weren't there.

The ranges of the ships involved were as follows:
Bismarck 36km
Rodney 32km
KGV less

These are effective ranges, to get maximum range add a few percent.

As I said before the German shells were aerodynamic and had slightly longer range, which gives an overwhelming advantage in practice.

[dunmunro]

That doesn't contest anything I said. If the guns and FC actually worked the bismarck would win easily, the other ships would never come in range.

Rodney actually outranged Bismarck whilst KGV's maximum range was only ~1000yds less than Bismarck, but these max ranges were quite irrelevant as no hits could be expected at those ranges.

At Denmark Straits, Bismarck had the advantage of a functioning radar ranging system, yet PoW's FC accuracy seem to have been very similar to Bismarck, and arguably superior at ~30km. With a fully functional FC radar systems and another few weeks of working up PoW would probably have been superior to Bismarck in accuracy of main battery fire.

True, but they weren't there.

The ranges of the ships involved were as follows:
Bismarck 36km
Rodney 32km
KGV less

These are effective ranges, to get maximum range add a few percent.

As I said before the German shells were aerodynamic and had slightly longer range, which gives an overwhelming advantage in practice.

KGV and PoW were sister ships.

The maximum range of KGV/PoW's 14in guns was 38600 yds vs 39,589 yards for Bismarck.

Maximum 'effective' range for any WW2 battleship was basically the maximum range of the radar FC ranging system. Without radar the atmospheric conditions in the North Atlantic made optical spotting and ranging very difficult beyond ~25k yds, or so, until range fell below about 20K yds.