Correct me if I'm wrong but it was a single salvo with multiple hits. You're correct both ships were incapable of penetrating the main deck armor- actually they were incapable of penetrating it at any effective range, aside from a tiny window around 20km.
Sorry to change from deck to side penetration, but that's the only difference here. The side armor of the bridge was 350mm. The multiple hits were on the open bridge, and some were on the side, so we know it was Rodney.
The Rodney was able to penetrate this armor at 14km. The King George could do it at 12km. The engagement was said to have happened at 20,000 yards, which is closer to what the Rodney was, combined with the Rodney being closer.
It's possible all the accounts are wrong and King George was close enough to get this shot, but all the evidence points to Rodney being closer and having the penetration needed at the time it happened. If it was the King George then it would have to spend several minutes in the fire zone to get there and bismarck could easily kill it first.
RN testing on 14in armour (~350mm) showed that 14in AP rounds could penetrate it (with damage to the shell) at 1750fps at 30deg striking angle and perforate it (pass a 14in shell intact though the armour) at ~1850fps and 30deg target angle. This means that at ~16k yds a 14in AP shell could have done all the damage claimed. Additionally, Bismarck's turrets had an upper facet to the face plate that was only 180mm thick and this was easily penetrated by the 14in AP round at any range, under about 45degs striking angle.
But we are not talking about the turrets, and the upper face plate was hard to hit and was never an issue.
The 14in could just barely penetrate at 16k yards, there was additional armor behind the front plate and it wouldn't penetrate. I believe this was already discussed.
All this talk about 'fire zones' and 'killing' KGV or Rodney is absurd and you should cease these nonsense statements. PoW wasn't killed by Bismarck and KGV/POW and Rodney didn't have the thin armour and poor magazine placement that Hood had. It would have taken sustained fire with many hits for Bismarck to even disable, much less sink Rodney or KGV/PoW. In the meantime Bismarck would be taking hits in return.
KGV reported the range at 0900 to be 15000yds. The Turrets, CT armour and upper fire control armour was vulnerable to 14in hits at the 0902 ranges. We don't know what happened to the turrets since their crews all died and the turrets fell off the ship and are largely buried in mud. There are contradictory statements from various primary source accounts as to when they were knocked out.
RN testing on 14in armour (~350mm) showed that 14in AP rounds could penetrate it (with damage to the shell) at 1750fps at 30deg striking angle and perforate it (pass a 14in shell intact though the armour) at ~1850fps and 30deg target angle. This means that at ~16k yds a 14in AP shell could have done all the damage claimed. Additionally, Bismarck's turrets had an upper facet to the face plate that was only 180mm thick and this was easily penetrated by the 14in AP round at any range, under about 45degs striking angle.
But we are not talking about the turrets, and the upper face plate was hard to hit and was never an issue.
The 14in could just barely penetrate at 16k yards, there was additional armor behind the front plate and it wouldn't penetrate. I believe this was already discussed.
All this talk about 'fire zones and 'killing KGV or Rodney is absurd and you should cease these nonsense statements. PoW wasn't killed by Bismarck and KGV/POW and Rodney didn't have the thin armour and poor magazine placement that Hood had. It would have taken sustained fire with many hits for Bismarck to even disable, much less sink Rodney or KGV/PoW.
KGV reported the range at 0900 to be 15000yds. The Turrets, CT armour and upper fire control armour was vulnerable to 14in hits at the 0902 ranges. We don't know what happened to the turrets since their crews all died and the turrets fell off the ship and are largely buried in mud. There are contradictory statements from various primary source accounts as to when they were knocked out.
I'm fine if you just say the issue is unclear, but it seems clear to me Rodney made the shot, it would be difficult for anyone else to penetrate all the citadel armor. I rest my case here, you are free to argue some other scenario.
As for the ability of British ships to survive, they would have died at 25km, it's absurd the battle even closed to these ranges. But I'm fine once the debate is reduced to the ability of British ships to survive hits and continue fighting because historically, all the ships never fought again, whereas the German ships took a lot of hits to sink and still scuttled themselves.
But we are not talking about the turrets, and the upper face plate was hard to hit and was never an issue.
The 14in could just barely penetrate at 16k yards, there was additional armor behind the front plate and it wouldn't penetrate. I believe this was already discussed.
All this talk about 'fire zones and 'killing KGV or Rodney is absurd and you should cease these nonsense statements. PoW wasn't killed by Bismarck and KGV/POW and Rodney didn't have the thin armour and poor magazine placement that Hood had. It would have taken sustained fire with many hits for Bismarck to even disable, much less sink Rodney or KGV/PoW.
KGV reported the range at 0900 to be 15000yds. The Turrets, CT armour and upper fire control armour was vulnerable to 14in hits at the 0902 ranges. We don't know what happened to the turrets since their crews all died and the turrets fell off the ship and are largely buried in mud. There are contradictory statements from various primary source accounts as to when they were knocked out.
I'm fine if you just say the issue is unclear, but it seems clear to me Rodney made the shot, it would be difficult for anyone else to penetrate all the citadel armor. I rest my case here, you are free to argue some other scenario.
As for the ability of British ships to survive, they would have died at 25km, it's absurd the battle even closed to these ranges. But I'm fine once the debate is reduced to the ability of British ships to survive hits and continue fighting because historically, all the ships never fought again, whereas the German ships took a lot of hits to sink and still scuttled themselves.
Rodney and KGV were never hit by Bismarck, despite having an intact forward FC system until at least 0902 and the after FC systems for somewhat longer. PoW survived multiple hits at Denmark Straits and almost all the secondary FC system damage was repaired by ships staff whilst she was at sea. The 14in FC system remained undamaged.
The placement of the ship's magazines in KGV/PoW made them essentially invulnerable to 38cm hits while Rodney's were far better protected than Hoods.
Statements like "they would have died at 25km" is utter and complete infantile nonsense.
All this talk about 'fire zones and 'killing KGV or Rodney is absurd and you should cease these nonsense statements. PoW wasn't killed by Bismarck and KGV/POW and Rodney didn't have the thin armour and poor magazine placement that Hood had. It would have taken sustained fire with many hits for Bismarck to even disable, much less sink Rodney or KGV/PoW.
KGV reported the range at 0900 to be 15000yds. The Turrets, CT armour and upper fire control armour was vulnerable to 14in hits at the 0902 ranges. We don't know what happened to the turrets since their crews all died and the turrets fell off the ship and are largely buried in mud. There are contradictory statements from various primary source accounts as to when they were knocked out.
I'm fine if you just say the issue is unclear, but it seems clear to me Rodney made the shot, it would be difficult for anyone else to penetrate all the citadel armor. I rest my case here, you are free to argue some other scenario.
As for the ability of British ships to survive, they would have died at 25km, it's absurd the battle even closed to these ranges. But I'm fine once the debate is reduced to the ability of British ships to survive hits and continue fighting because historically, all the ships never fought again, whereas the German ships took a lot of hits to sink and still scuttled themselves.
Rodney and KGV were never hit by Bismarck, despite having an intact forward FC system until at least 0902 and the after FC systems for somewhat longer. PoW survived multiple hits at Denmark Straits and almost all the secondary FC system damage was repaired by ships staff whilst she was at sea. The 14in FC system remained undamaged.
The placement of the ship's magazines in KGV/PoW made them essentially invulnerable to 38cm hits while Rodney's were far better protected than Hoods.
Statements like "they would have died at 25km" is utter and complete infantile nonsense.
Yes of course because Bismarck never fired, if they did they'd be dead.
For POW the shells never detonated. The ship was later sunk by aircraft and aerial torpedoes much smaller than a battleship shell.
Hi Mustang,
Take a look at an old thread called Practical Ranges that I started in Naval Weapons in may 2012 where on very experienced contributor posted (amongst others) this answer:
"The problem is the hit ratio at long range. As we know, even late 1944/5 RDFC had it\s limitations, and that's why all the major navies restricted their attack ranges at 27km or less. For the Royal Navy, 25-28km was considered "extreme" range; the USN had a limit of 27km for effective engagement; the Kriegsmarine considered 25km to be very long range, etc".
So while it may have been possible for Bismarck to hit KGV or Rodney at the distance that you state in good conditions, it would have been unlikely given the weather and sea during the final battle, and almost impossible when she could not steer. In any case an occasional hit at that distance while no doubt causing damage would be very unlikely to sink either of them.
As I said before in my last post, Lutyens had no interest in taking on capital ships unless he was forced to, had they got this close,(25000yds) Bismarck left undamaged and being faster than either Rodney or KGV, would have been able to use her speed to avoid conflict, particularly as she would have already had a 25000 yard start on her opponents so it would not be necessary to open fire at all.
Of course, had she not been damaged neither RN ship would have got anywhere near her in the first place!
I have noticed in other threads that occasionally there is a tendency for some to consider Bismarck the last word in battleship design and to denigrate some of the RN ships to the point where none are anywhere near comparable with her. Rodney was old and dreadfully slow, but was well armed and armoured, the KGV's although a few knots slower than Bismarck were still very fine ships, again well armed with 10x14" giving a heavier weight of fire (when they worked!) than Bismarck and also well armoured. We have discussed the merits of all of them on a one to one basis on several occasions and its always worthwhile to go back and read some of the posts to read what some of our resident experts have to say.
paul.mercer wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2023 1:03 pm
Hi Mustang,
Take a look at an old thread called Practical Ranges that I started in Naval Weapons in may 2012 where on very experienced contributor posted (amongst others) this answer:
"The problem is the hit ratio at long range. As we know, even late 1944/5 RDFC had it\s limitations, and that's why all the major navies restricted their attack ranges at 27km or less. For the Royal Navy, 25-28km was considered "extreme" range; the USN had a limit of 27km for effective engagement; the Kriegsmarine considered 25km to be very long range, etc".
So while it may have been possible for Bismarck to hit KGV or Rodney at the distance that you state in good conditions, it would have been unlikely given the weather and sea during the final battle, and almost impossible when she could not steer. In any case an occasional hit at that distance while no doubt causing damage would be very unlikely to sink either of them.
As I said before in my last post, Lutyens had no interest in taking on capital ships unless he was forced to, had they got this close,(25000yds) Bismarck left undamaged and being faster than either Rodney or KGV, would have been able to use her speed to avoid conflict, particularly as she would have already had a 25000 yard start on her opponents so it would not be necessary to open fire at all.
Of course, had she not been damaged neither RN ship would have got anywhere near her in the first place!
I have noticed in other threads that occasionally there is a tendency for some to consider Bismarck the last word in battleship design and to denigrate some of the RN ships to the point where none are anywhere near comparable with her. Rodney was old and dreadfully slow, but was well armed and armoured, the KGV's although a few knots slower than Bismarck were still very fine ships, again well armed with 10x14" giving a heavier weight of fire (when they worked!) than Bismarck and also well armoured. We have discussed the merits of all of them on a one to one basis on several occasions and its always worthwhile to go back and read some of the posts to read what some of our resident experts have to say.
I will let you end the argument on the accuracy issue, because otherwise bismarck would obviously sink all the British ships easily at twice their range.
Incidentally, even after the bismarck was lost, the Germans were still stronger. The two German cruisers were capable of penetrating the King George at any detection range.
Mustang wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2023 1:06 pm
I will let you end the argument on the accuracy issue, because otherwise bismarck would obviously sink all the British ships easily at twice their range.
Incidentally, even after the bismarck was lost, the Germans were still stronger. The two German cruisers were capable of penetrating the King George at any detection range.
You mean Scharnhorst and Gneisenau with theirs 11" guns?
paul.mercer wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2023 1:03 pm
the KGV's although a few knots slower than Bismarck..
KGV ran trials with paravanes streamed and made 28 knots with 110K shp with 232rpm (Friedman and Goodall) This equates to ~28.7 knots without the paravanes. PoW made between 128K and 134K shp during the hours before engaging Bismarck, and her log shows rpm recordings consistent with much higher power output than during acceptance trials. DoY made 28.6 knots during her acceptance trials, again with ~110K shp and ~232rpm. This data shows a top speed for the KGV class of ~29.5 knots under trials conditions, or less than one knot slower than Bismarck.
I will let you end the argument on the accuracy issue, because otherwise bismarck would obviously sink all the British ships easily at twice their range.
Incidentally, even after the bismarck was lost, the Germans were still stronger. The two German cruisers were capable of penetrating the King George at any detection range.
I will let you end the argument on the accuracy issue, because otherwise bismarck would obviously sink all the British ships easily at twice their range.
Incidentally, even after the bismarck was lost, the Germans were still stronger. The two German cruisers were capable of penetrating the King George at any detection range.
They would penetrate KGV almost anywhere, and even the hipper would, although the penetration stats for the hipper are very low for some reason.
Are you serious?
The hipper would not using the penetration tables, but I don't understand why it's penetration was so low. It's about 1/4 the penetration of the bismarck with 1/2 the sectional density.
