Hello Mr. TTTT,
I would say that first straddles/hits came from both British ships at just around 09:00, with range already down to 20.000 yards for Rodney and 18.000-19.000 yards for KGV.
KGV reports claim that flagship straddled and actually achieved a hit at 08:54, however this is very unlikely because:
1) KGV, after first 2 salvos, mixed their and Rodney's fall of shots. Then they got a good range at 08:53, observing a hit on Bismarck, from 20,500 yards with next salvo,that is quite unlikely.
2) Norfolk (flank-marking for KGV and Rodney) did not observe any straddle (from any British capital ship) until 09:00 and just observed first hits at 09:04.
3) German survivors did not account for any hit on board before around 09:00 or even later.
IMHO, first straddles/hits came from both British ships at just around 09:00, with range already down to 20.000 yards for Rodney and 18.000-19.000 yards for KGV.
hans
How close was the final battle?
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hans zurbriggen
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Re: How close was the final battle?
Why is (1) unlikely? KGV had an accurate range and rate plot and they fired a double salvo: A at 20300 yds and B at 20700 yds and they observed a hit with the A salvo. PoW, without radar, scored her first straddle and hit on Bismarck at 22100 yds.hans zurbriggen wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 5:44 pm Hello Mr. TTTT,
I would say that first straddles/hits came from both British ships at just around 09:00, with range already down to 20.000 yards for Rodney and 18.000-19.000 yards for KGV.
KGV reports claim that flagship straddled and actually achieved a hit at 08:54, however this is very unlikely because:
1) KGV, after first 2 salvos, mixed their and Rodney's fall of shots. Then they got a good range at 08:53, observing a hit on Bismarck, from 20,500 yards with next salvo,that is quite unlikely.
2) Norfolk (flank-marking for KGV and Rodney) did not observe any straddle (from any British capital ship) until 09:00 and just observed first hits at 09:04.
3) German survivors did not account for any hit on board before around 09:00 or even later.
IMHO, first straddles/hits came from both British ships at just around 09:00, with range already down to 20.000 yards for Rodney and 18.000-19.000 yards for KGV.
hans
(2) Norfolk would have had to constantly observe 3-4 x 14in and 16in salvo's/minute and probably 4 x 8in salvo's/min and own 8in muzzle blast and smoke would make spotting even the 14 and 16in salvos accurately, quite difficult.
Re: How close was the final battle?
Thanks, so it's (un)safe to say that the hit(s) that knocked out Anton and Bruno could have come from both Rodney and KGV?
Had any of the few surviving Germans anything to say about it? I would guess very few, if any, Germans involved at the bridge, FC and main turrets survived.
When you read some stories about the battle, you sometimes get the impression KGV barely took part at all, or - at best - played a distant secondary role.
Had any of the few surviving Germans anything to say about it? I would guess very few, if any, Germans involved at the bridge, FC and main turrets survived.
When you read some stories about the battle, you sometimes get the impression KGV barely took part at all, or - at best - played a distant secondary role.
Re: How close was the final battle?
I think it's safe to say that Bismarck's fire became erratic early in the action and that KGV's vastly superior FC, relative to Rodney, meant that the large majority of hits prior to ~0920 came from KGV.TTTT wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 6:37 pm Thanks, so it's (un)safe to say that the hit(s) that knocked out Anton and Bruno could have come from both Rodney and KGV?
Had any of the few surviving Germans anything to say about it? I would guess very few, if any, Germans involved at the bridge, FC and main turrets survived.
When you read some stories about the battle, you sometimes get the impression KGV barely took part at all, or - at best - played a distant secondary role.
Re: How close was the final battle?
Thanks. I wonder where/when did the story about the "mythical" one shell-two turret kill appear. Is it the matter of one author claiming it, and "lazy" later writers just copying it?
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hans zurbriggen
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Re: How close was the final battle?
Hello Mr. TTTT,
German survivors accounts are reported by both Brennecke (who summarized several survivors accounts) and Baron von Müllenheim-Rechberg (G.O. and survivor himself). They both say that it was Rodney that hit Bismarck fore turrets. While Baron reports one generically decisive hit on Bismarck forecastle, Brennecke says a 16" shell severely damaged both A turret and (less severely) B turret, sending splinters from B turret on Bismarck bridge.
I don't know whether it was KGV or Rodney that contributed more to Bismarck disabling, however before 09:00, it is very unlikely that any hit could have been scored, as clearly confirmed both by Norfolk observations and by German survivors accounts.
The claim of a hit observed at 08:54 from KGV is not supported by any other witness and it would have been a quite extraordinary achievement, straddling and hitting with very first correct measured range (after that, for 5 minutes, around 8 salvos, enemy range was being miscalculated by up to 4.500 yards), while Y turret was not even bearing yet.
hans
German survivors accounts are reported by both Brennecke (who summarized several survivors accounts) and Baron von Müllenheim-Rechberg (G.O. and survivor himself). They both say that it was Rodney that hit Bismarck fore turrets. While Baron reports one generically decisive hit on Bismarck forecastle, Brennecke says a 16" shell severely damaged both A turret and (less severely) B turret, sending splinters from B turret on Bismarck bridge.
I don't know whether it was KGV or Rodney that contributed more to Bismarck disabling, however before 09:00, it is very unlikely that any hit could have been scored, as clearly confirmed both by Norfolk observations and by German survivors accounts.
The claim of a hit observed at 08:54 from KGV is not supported by any other witness and it would have been a quite extraordinary achievement, straddling and hitting with very first correct measured range (after that, for 5 minutes, around 8 salvos, enemy range was being miscalculated by up to 4.500 yards), while Y turret was not even bearing yet.
hans
Re: How close was the final battle?
How could anyone on Bismarck know if it was a 14in or 16in hit that caused damage?hans zurbriggen wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:16 pm Hello Mr. TTTT,
German survivors accounts are reported by both Brennecke (who summarized several survivors accounts) and Baron von Müllenheim-Rechberg (G.O. and survivor himself). They both say that it was Rodney that hit Bismarck fore turrets. While Baron reports one generically decisive hit on Bismarck forecastle, Brennecke says a 16" shell severely damaged both A turret and (less severely) B turret, sending splinters from B turret on Bismarck bridge.
I don't know whether it was KGV or Rodney that contributed more to Bismarck disabling, however before 09:00, it is very unlikely that any hit could have been scored, as clearly confirmed both by Norfolk observations and by German survivors accounts.
The claim of a hit observed at 08:54 from KGV is not supported by any other witness and it would have been a quite extraordinary achievement, straddling and hitting with very first correct measured range (after that, for 5 minutes, around 8 salvos, enemy range was being miscalculated by up to 4.500 yards), while Y turret was not even bearing yet.
hans
KGV's radar was giving accurate ranges from 22K yds and under, because that's when it became apparent that Rodney's salvos were being mistakenly spotted. Under 21100 yds the 284 radar was giving continuous ranges which would create a very accurate range and rate plot on the AFCT. A 14in hit at 0853/4 was highly probable.
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paul.mercer
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Re: How close was the final battle?
Gentlemen,dunmunro wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 9:14 pmHow could anyone on Bismarck know if it was a 14in or 16in hit that caused damage?hans zurbriggen wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:16 pm Hello Mr. TTTT,
German survivors accounts are reported by both Brennecke (who summarized several survivors accounts) and Baron von Müllenheim-Rechberg (G.O. and survivor himself). They both say that it was Rodney that hit Bismarck fore turrets. While Baron reports one generically decisive hit on Bismarck forecastle, Brennecke says a 16" shell severely damaged both A turret and (less severely) B turret, sending splinters from B turret on Bismarck bridge.
I don't know whether it was KGV or Rodney that contributed more to Bismarck disabling, however before 09:00, it is very unlikely that any hit could have been scored, as clearly confirmed both by Norfolk observations and by German survivors accounts.
The claim of a hit observed at 08:54 from KGV is not supported by any other witness and it would have been a quite extraordinary achievement, straddling and hitting with very first correct measured range (after that, for 5 minutes, around 8 salvos, enemy range was being miscalculated by up to 4.500 yards), while Y turret was not even bearing yet.
hans
KGV's radar was giving accurate ranges from 22K yds and under, because that's when it became apparent that Rodney's salvos were being mistakenly spotted. Under 21100 yds the 284 radar was giving continuous ranges which would create a very accurate range and rate plot on the AFCT. A 14in hit at 0853/4 was highly probable.
Another couple of questions I'm afraid!
If KGV's range finding was so much better than that of Rodney, would not Rodney's gunnery crew crew use the shell splashes from KGV as a marker?
Also, referring to the hit(s) on Bismarck's turrets, would a 14" shell be capable of doing that amount of damage?
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hans zurbriggen
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Re: How close was the final battle?
Hello all,
this for reference from KGV GAR. 284 got target at 25.100 yards. Then 284 operator mistook Rodney's splashes as KGV's (and insisted on wrong range of 25.000 yards).
First "corrected" range (unclear whether radar or optical) came only at 08:53 and it was 20.500 yards. Therefore first correct salvo hitting at once is unlikely (and not confirmed by any other ship, and not by German survivors).
German G.O.(Baron) and even other witnesses were well able (as they were even on board of British ships like distant Norfolk) to distinguish between smaller splashes from 14" and "considerably" larger ones from 16", therefore probability that hit that disabled A and B turret came from a Rodney's salvo is much higher than from KGV's.
hans
this for reference from KGV GAR. 284 got target at 25.100 yards. Then 284 operator mistook Rodney's splashes as KGV's (and insisted on wrong range of 25.000 yards).
First "corrected" range (unclear whether radar or optical) came only at 08:53 and it was 20.500 yards. Therefore first correct salvo hitting at once is unlikely (and not confirmed by any other ship, and not by German survivors).
- KGV Gunnery Control.jpg (56.42 KiB) Viewed 57616 times
German G.O.(Baron) and even other witnesses were well able (as they were even on board of British ships like distant Norfolk) to distinguish between smaller splashes from 14" and "considerably" larger ones from 16", therefore probability that hit that disabled A and B turret came from a Rodney's salvo is much higher than from KGV's.
- Norfolk_flank-marking.jpg (45.18 KiB) Viewed 57616 times
hans
Re: How close was the final battle?
Yeah, I've wondered about that, too. How could the Germans know what battleship hit them and when? And wasn't the baron stationed at the rear of Bismarck?
Edit: I wrote this before I saw the last paragraph of Hans's post...
Edit: I wrote this before I saw the last paragraph of Hans's post...
Re: How close was the final battle?
Firstly, Norfolk's flank marking was not useful to either Rodney or KGV. KGV's FC team was unable to distinguish between 14 and 16in salvos for a few minutes and this was due to the 'fall of shot hooter' giving incorrect timing. If the shell splashes were so dissimilar then the 'fall of shot hooter' could have been ignored.hans zurbriggen wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:00 am Hello all,
this for reference from KGV GAR. 284 got target at 25.100 yards. Then 284 operator mistook Rodney's splashes as KGV's (and insisted on wrong range of 25.000 yards).
First "corrected" range (unclear whether radar or optical) came only at 08:53 and it was 20.500 yards. Therefore first correct salvo hitting at once is unlikely (and not confirmed by any other ship, and not by German survivors).
KGV Gunnery Control.jpg
German G.O.(Baron) and even other witnesses were well able (as they were even on board of British ships like distant Norfolk) to distinguish between smaller splashes from 14" and "considerably" larger ones from 16", therefore probability that hit that disabled A and B turret came from a Rodney's salvo is much higher than from KGV's.
Norfolk_flank-marking.jpg
hans
This is from the radar report in KGV's GAR:
- KGVradar1.jpg (165.58 KiB) Viewed 57576 times
I am very sceptical that 14in and 16in shell splashes were greatly different, or 14in and 15in for that matter, since Hood seems to have confused them as well.
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hans zurbriggen
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Re: How close was the final battle?
Hello all,
284 radar got echos from Bismarck (even from 25.100 yards) and from all ships' fall of shots, but operator was unable to distinguish and "continued to look for Bismarck round about 25.000 yards" (https://www.kbismarck.org/forum/downloa ... hp?id=4164). Only "at 08:53 a range of 20.500 yards was obtained".
Enclosure N.3 (https://www.kbismarck.org/forum/downloa ... hp?id=4168), R.D/F officer's report on R.D/F equipment, is a report about 284 functioning, "considered to have been in first class working order" in same report, not of how good was operating personnel at interpreting echoes on radar screen, nor about which range guns were actually fired at. Apparently someone understood (at around 08:51) that 22.000 yards echo was from Bismarck, but until 21.000 yards (after 08:52) it was not a continuous echo.
Range of 20.500 yards (at around 08:53) is never mentioned in Enclosure N.3. Very first correct gun range was therefore possibly optical (not radar), or, as alternative, it was just at 08:53 that radar operator passed correct range to T.S. that corrected gun range accordingly. Anyway, once obtained a "good" gun range, KGV GAR claimed a straddle and a hit at very first semi-salvo fired at this range with fore turrets only (3 theoretical shells).
However, their claim is confirmed neither by Norfolk (flank-marking possibly with no much usefulness for BB, but well able to distinguish 14" from 16" splashes (https://www.kbismarck.org/forum/downloa ... hp?id=4165) and to report no straddle until 09:00), nor by German witnesses (who accounted for first hits after 09:00).
In any case, even unlikely assuming a 14" isolated "lucky hit" at 08:53, no damage was seen/reported, while first damaging hits were registered (by Norfolk) and perceived (by Germans) only after 09:00 (probably at 09:02), coming from 16" shells.
hans
284 radar got echos from Bismarck (even from 25.100 yards) and from all ships' fall of shots, but operator was unable to distinguish and "continued to look for Bismarck round about 25.000 yards" (https://www.kbismarck.org/forum/downloa ... hp?id=4164). Only "at 08:53 a range of 20.500 yards was obtained".
Enclosure N.3 (https://www.kbismarck.org/forum/downloa ... hp?id=4168), R.D/F officer's report on R.D/F equipment, is a report about 284 functioning, "considered to have been in first class working order" in same report, not of how good was operating personnel at interpreting echoes on radar screen, nor about which range guns were actually fired at. Apparently someone understood (at around 08:51) that 22.000 yards echo was from Bismarck, but until 21.000 yards (after 08:52) it was not a continuous echo.
Range of 20.500 yards (at around 08:53) is never mentioned in Enclosure N.3. Very first correct gun range was therefore possibly optical (not radar), or, as alternative, it was just at 08:53 that radar operator passed correct range to T.S. that corrected gun range accordingly. Anyway, once obtained a "good" gun range, KGV GAR claimed a straddle and a hit at very first semi-salvo fired at this range with fore turrets only (3 theoretical shells).
However, their claim is confirmed neither by Norfolk (flank-marking possibly with no much usefulness for BB, but well able to distinguish 14" from 16" splashes (https://www.kbismarck.org/forum/downloa ... hp?id=4165) and to report no straddle until 09:00), nor by German witnesses (who accounted for first hits after 09:00).
In any case, even unlikely assuming a 14" isolated "lucky hit" at 08:53, no damage was seen/reported, while first damaging hits were registered (by Norfolk) and perceived (by Germans) only after 09:00 (probably at 09:02), coming from 16" shells.
hans
Re: How close was the final battle?
The 22k Yd range would be communicated to the AFCT team. Continuous echo was from 21.1k yds.hans zurbriggen wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 9:55 pm Hello all,
284 radar got echos from Bismarck (even from 25.100 yards) and from all ships' fall of shots, but operator was unable to distinguish and "continued to look for Bismarck round about 25.000 yards" (https://www.kbismarck.org/forum/downloa ... hp?id=4164). Only "at 08:53 a range of 20.500 yards was obtained".
Enclosure N.3 (https://www.kbismarck.org/forum/downloa ... hp?id=4168), R.D/F officer's report on R.D/F equipment, is a report about 284 functioning, "considered to have been in first class working order" in same report, not of how good was operating personnel at interpreting echoes on radar screen, nor about which range guns were actually fired at. Apparently someone understood (at around 08:51) that 22.000 yards echo was from Bismarck, but until 21.000 yards (after 08:52) it was not a continuous echo.
Range of 20.500 yards (at around 08:53) is never mentioned in Enclosure N.3. Very first correct gun range was therefore possibly optical (not radar), or, as alternative, it was just at 08:53 that radar operator passed correct range to T.S. that corrected gun range accordingly. Anyway, once obtained a "good" gun range, KGV GAR claimed a straddle and a hit at very first semi-salvo fired at this range with fore turrets only (3 theoretical shells).
However, their claim is confirmed neither by Norfolk (flank-marking possibly with no much usefulness for BB, but well able to distinguish 14" from 16" splashes (https://www.kbismarck.org/forum/downloa ... hp?id=4165) and to report no straddle until 09:00), nor by German witnesses (who accounted for first hits after 09:00).
In any case, even unlikely assuming a 14" isolated "lucky hit" at 08:53, no damage was seen/reported, while first damaging hits were registered (by Norfolk) and perceived (by Germans) only after 09:00 (probably at 09:02), coming from 16" shells.
hans
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hans zurbriggen
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Re: How close was the final battle?
Hello all,
we have for KGV a long GAR + Enclosures but we don't have the most valuable Salvo Plot (luckily, we have it for PoW on May 24 and for Rodney on May 27), with all exact gun ranges, gun bearings, enemy inclination and precise fire timing from T.S., marked salvo by salvo.
Salvo plot could have confirmed whether KGV was firing at estimated 'decent' decreasing ranges (coming probably from rangefinder, or even possibly from radar as 'suggested' by Enclosure N.3 Section I: https://www.kbismarck.org/forum/downloa ... hp?id=4168) before 08:53 or just following radar operator error, applying corrections to a constant (incorrect) range of 25.000 yards (as clearly implied in GAR: https://www.kbismarck.org/forum/downloa ... hp?id=4164).
However, this is from KGV GAR, Enclosure N.3 Section II ("Remarks on above report of R.D/F Officer"), It seems to imply that radar operator error actually had serious consequences on Gunnery Control decisions and recommend that this kind of errors should be avoided in future in order to 'get full value from R.D/F ranging'.
Evidences are posted and everyone can make up his mind on a possible (unconfirmed by Norfolk and German survivors, and anyway negligible) hit on Bismarck at 08:53, waiting to find (if still existing) KGV salvo plot, only way to clarify what happened in very first minutes firing.
hans
we have for KGV a long GAR + Enclosures but we don't have the most valuable Salvo Plot (luckily, we have it for PoW on May 24 and for Rodney on May 27), with all exact gun ranges, gun bearings, enemy inclination and precise fire timing from T.S., marked salvo by salvo.
Salvo plot could have confirmed whether KGV was firing at estimated 'decent' decreasing ranges (coming probably from rangefinder, or even possibly from radar as 'suggested' by Enclosure N.3 Section I: https://www.kbismarck.org/forum/downloa ... hp?id=4168) before 08:53 or just following radar operator error, applying corrections to a constant (incorrect) range of 25.000 yards (as clearly implied in GAR: https://www.kbismarck.org/forum/downloa ... hp?id=4164).
However, this is from KGV GAR, Enclosure N.3 Section II ("Remarks on above report of R.D/F Officer"), It seems to imply that radar operator error actually had serious consequences on Gunnery Control decisions and recommend that this kind of errors should be avoided in future in order to 'get full value from R.D/F ranging'.
- KGV Enclosure N.3_Section II_3.jpg (20.21 KiB) Viewed 57528 times
Evidences are posted and everyone can make up his mind on a possible (unconfirmed by Norfolk and German survivors, and anyway negligible) hit on Bismarck at 08:53, waiting to find (if still existing) KGV salvo plot, only way to clarify what happened in very first minutes firing.
hans
Re: How close was the final battle?
Thank you for working this out, Hans and dummunro!