Hits on Scharnhorst in final battle

[TTTT]

Update after last excellent article from Dunmunro.

At least 13 14-inch hits from Duke of York (at least 10 confirmed by German prisoners). Unknown number of hits from the 4 cruisers, but likely more than from DoY. Unknown number of hits from the 8 destroyers.

After Scharnhorst had been slowed down, the following torpedoes were fired at her:

Destroyers Savage, Saumarez, Stord and Scorpion fired 8+8 torpedoes, scoring one hit on starboard side and three hits on port side (at least three of these confirmed by German prisoners) = 4 torpedo hits.

Due to these torpedo hits, Scharnhorst's speed fell to 20 knots.

After further shell hits from DoY and cruisers, speed fell to 5 knots.

The light cruiser Jamaica then fired 6 torpedoes, of which two probably hit, target hidden by smoke, but underwater explotions heard = 6 torpedo hits

The light cruiser Belfast fired 3 torpedoes, of which one hit was claimed, but unlikely.

Scharnhorst's end came when the British destroyers Opportune, Virago, Musketeer and Matchless fired a further 19 torpedoes. According to the article most likely 5 hits (7 claimed) from this attack. As these destroyers attacked at about the same time as the cruisers, there might be some overlap = 11 torpedo hits

So, 44 torpedoes fired - most likely 11 hits.(possible range 9-14)

[TTTT]

As a sidenote, Yamato went down after 11 smaller torpedoes (and 8 bombs) dropped from airplanes. Her sister Musashi took 17 bombs and 19 torpedoes dropped from airplanes, but was already seriously wounded after the first 3 bombs and 4 torpedoes.

[hans zurbriggen]

Hello Mt. TTTT,
as sidenote too, Yamatos were 73,000 tons, while Scharnhorst was 39,000 tons only (max displ.).

German battleships were extremely resilient also against torpedoes due to maniacal compartmentation, constructive quality and 'old style' quite efficient UW protection scheme.

Comparison is unfair, but the 3 to 4 torpedoes got by Bismarck (53,000 tons) during her mission (before the final ones on May 27) did almost nothing to affect her floatability; also it is very doubtful that the further 5 (2 certain, 3 claimed as probable) got on 27 would have sufficed to sink her (without scuttling). PoW (45,000 tons) went down after 4 torpedo hits (even considering that the first one was a very 'lucky' one).
Was ever a modern US BB struck by more than 1 torpedo at same time ?

hans

[dunmunro]

Update after last excellent article from Dunmunro.

At least 13 14-inch hits from Duke of York (at least 10 confirmed by German prisoners). Unknown number of hits from the 4 cruisers, but likely more than from DoY. Unknown number of hits from the 8 destroyers.

After Scharnhorst had been slowed down, the following torpedoes were fired at her:

Destroyers Savage, Saumarez, Stord and Scorpion fired 8+8 torpedoes, scoring one hit on starboard side and three hits on port side (at least three of these confirmed by German prisoners) = 4 torpedo hits.

Due to these torpedo hits, Scharnhorst's speed fell to 20 knots.

After further shell hits from DoY and cruisers, speed fell to 5 knots.

The light cruiser Jamaica then fired 6 torpedoes, of which two probably hit, target hidden by smoke, but underwater explotions heard = 6 torpedo hits

The light cruiser Belfast fired 3 torpedoes, of which one hit was claimed, but unlikely.

Scharnhorst's end came when the British destroyers Opportune, Virago, Musketeer and Matchless fired a further 19 torpedoes. According to the article most likely 5 hits (7 claimed) from this attack. As these destroyers attacked at about the same time as the cruisers, there might be some overlap = 11 torpedo hits

So, 44 torpedoes fired - most likely 11 hits.(possible range 9-14)

A common scenario:
Four destroyers launch torpedoes at the same target and one hit is scored... and of course, each destroyer claims one hit!

The way to read the Despatch is too look for actual visual verification of each hit, and you'll see that such verification is lacking. We know that against Bismarck that about 40 destroyer and cruiser and battleship torpedoes were launched against her on May 26 and 27 up to 1010 hours 27 May , and many hits were claimed but probably none scored. It wasn't until Dorsetshire closed to ~1000 yds and fired torpedoes that they were able to visually verify the hits. The wind and wave conditions were similar in the Bismarck and Scharnhorst actions.

[Thorsten Wahl]

You can read in this account that the number of torpedo hits is highly conjectural;

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/UK/L ... /38038.pdf

Thank you Duncan.

Was the british convoy aware, that they were detected by aircrafts using Funkmess?
I will provide some more details later.

[dunmunro]

You can read in this account that the number of torpedo hits is highly conjectural;

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/UK/L ... /38038.pdf

Thank you Duncan.

Was the british convoy aware, that they were detected by aircrafts using Funkmess?
I will provide some more details later.

RN AW radar (type 271/281) would have detected the aircraft, and IIRC, Fraser was informed via codebreaking intercepts, that the Luftwaffe had issued a sighting report against the Convoy and against Force 2. The convoy knew from Huff/Duff that uboats were shadowing the convoy.

[RF]

According to Wikipedia, she was actually still doing 20 knots after the first 4-5 torpedo hits. It would seem like German capital ships were relatively well protected against torpedoes, probably because of the high number of watertight compartments?

German capital ships also had comparatively wider beams than other navies, giving them better stability as gun platforms and better flood control.

[hans zurbriggen]

Hello Mr. RF,
what you say is certainly true for Bismarcks but not really for Scharnhorsts, that had a smaller beam than any other modern BB, including the Dunkerques.
hans

[dunmunro]

According to Wikipedia, she was actually still doing 20 knots after the first 4-5 torpedo hits. It would seem like German capital ships were relatively well protected against torpedoes, probably because of the high number of watertight compartments?

German capital ships also had comparatively wider beams than other navies, giving them better stability as gun platforms and better flood control.

Not Scharnhorst. Her maximum beam was only 30m or 98.4ft compared to 118.1ft for Bismarck.

[TTTT]

A common scenario:
Four destroyers launch torpedoes at the same target and one hit is scored... and of course, each destroyer claims one hit!

According to the article, the only possible overlap was between the destroyers and the two cruisers. The 6 destroyers involved seems to have taken turns. Of course, you never know in the fog of war. AARs are based on human memory about something that happened several hours, maybe even days before.

As for Bismarck vs. torpedoes,it seems to have involved about 20-34 from airplanes (three hits), and "several dozens from destroyers" (no hits)(before the finals one from the Dorsetshire (three fired two hits) and Rodney (two fired, one hit claimed)).The big difference with the latter was probably that both Bismarck's main and secondary battery was still fully operational, thus the destroyers had to fire their fishes while also trying to avoid incoming fire. And Bismarck wasn't a flaming wreck.

[TTTT]

Correction: Dorsetshire hit Bismarck two times, out of three torpedoes fired.

[dunmunro]

A common scenario:
Four destroyers launch torpedoes at the same target and one hit is scored... and of course, each destroyer claims one hit!

According to the article, the only possible overlap was between the destroyers and the two cruisers. The 6 destroyers involved seems to have taken turns. Of course, you never know in the fog of war. AARs are based on human memory about something that happened several hours, maybe even days before.

As for Bismarck vs. torpedoes,it seems to have involved about 20-34 from airplanes (three hits), and "several dozens from destroyers" (no hits)(before the finals one from the Dorsetshire (three fired two hits) and Rodney (two fired, one hit claimed)).The big difference with the latter was probably that both Bismarck's main and secondary battery was still fully operational, thus the destroyers had to fire their fishes while also trying to avoid incoming fire. And Bismarck wasn't a flaming wreck.

I excluded the aerial torpedoes launched against Bismarck and just focused on the surface launched torpedoes:

Destroyers launched 16 (26-27 May) = 3 claimed hits

Rodney 12 torpedoes = 1 claimed

Norfolk 8 torpedoes = 2 claimed

and it seems quite probable that no hits were scored by the above ships.

Summary of underwater attacks on S&G 1940-42:

G 20 June 1940: 21in (750lb TNT) torpedo hit 50ft from the bow and nearly blew the bow off = severe structural damage and potential loss of the entire bow. Maintained 19 knots after hit.

G 6 April 1941 18in (450lb TNT) torpedo hit, starboard just forward of 'C' turret. Severe damage to starboard prop shaft and extensive inboard flooding. Centre prop shaft disabled. Inboard armoured torpedo bulkhead defeated

S 8 June 1940 21in (750lb warhead) torpedo hit starboard side near 'C' turret. Severe damage to starboard prop shaft and extensive inboard flooding of machinery and other spaces. Inboard armoured torpedo bulkhead defeated. Centre prop shaft disabled. Scharnhorst able to maintain 20 knots on Port shaft alone.

S 11 Feb 1942 at 1531 magnetic mine (700-750lb charge) detonated ~100ft from the ship abreast 'B' turret. Shock temporarily stopped ship, one turbine back after 16mins but all turbines operating within 30mins.

S 11 Feb 1942 at 2234 magnetic mine (700-750lb charge) detonated starboard ~80ft from the ship. Shock temporarily stopped ship; centre turbine and starboard turbine able to make 14 knots by 2311.


Let's imagine 5 x 21in (and possible torpex warheads) torpedo hits on Scharnhorst, all within a few minutes...

[TTTT]

She sank very quickly after or even during the last attack by the cruisers and destroyers, so it is quite likely some of the torpedoes hit an already sinking ship.

HMS Belfast fired a salvo of three torpedoes, then turned around to fire three more torpedoes, only to find that Scharnhorst had disappeared.

[Thorsten Wahl]

G 6 April 1941 18in (450lb TNT) torpedo hit, starboard just forward of 'C' turret. Severe damage to starboard prop shaft and extensive inboard flooding. Centre prop shaft disabled. Inboard armoured torpedo bulkhead defeated

Frome Damage report MDV 550/ Heft 6 Torpedotreffer Schlachschiff Scharnhorst 8. Juni 1940

X=18:39 Torpedohit
X+3/4 min Countermeasures start
X+30 min maximum water ingress 2500 t water total
heeling 4 degrees stb
rear immerson +4m
Residual buoyancy ca 19000 t
straighten up ship by pumping over fuel oil and counter flooding starts

X+ 3 h residual healing 1°bb rear immerson 2 m
drain of fullfilled spaces start


X+16-18 about 700 t van be removed during the night and next morning

several departments run full of water because of opening the doors and not closing after passage.

primary damage to the hull
hole 16 m wide and 5 m height
primary damage to the torpedobulkhead
in the area of the detonation
-tearing off the riveting between Panzerdeck and Torpedobulkhead.
-torpedobulkhead bend inward by about one meter thereby tearing open of a vertical riveting between TDS plates over a lenght of about 3 m

Flooded spaces
https://photos.app.goo.gl/vJDqyMTenHyUcpXo8

[TTTT]

Rodney 12 torpedoes = 1 claimed

Norfolk 8 torpedoes = 2 claimed

Where did you find this info? Never heard about Norfolk firing torpedoes. And did Rodney really fire as many as 12 torpedoes?