Shells fired by Prinz Eugen
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- Herr Nilsson
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Shells fired by Prinz Eugen
There is a discrepancy between Jasper's GAR and the request for topping up the shells.
KTB May, 24th 1942
M.A.Za. (Marineartilleriezeugamt Brest ~ Naval Artillery Arsenal Brest) June, 7th 1941
Any thoughts?
KTB May, 24th 1942
M.A.Za. (Marineartilleriezeugamt Brest ~ Naval Artillery Arsenal Brest) June, 7th 1941
Any thoughts?
Regards
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
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Re: Shells fired by Prinz Eugen
The magazines weren't full when they left Norway?
Re: Shells fired by Prinz Eugen
The fact that 8 + 155 = 163 seems significant. I suspect that there was a typo in the M.A.Za. report and/or that it should have read 8 plus 155 for the two subsequent entries which may be referring to fore and aft propellant cartridges.Herr Nilsson wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 11:50 am There is a discrepancy between Jasper's GAR and the request for topping up the shells.
KTB May, 24th 1942
ktb.jpg
M.A.Za. (Marineartilleriezeugamt Brest ~ Naval Artillery Arsenal Brest) June, 7th 1941
maza.jpg
Any thoughts?
Edit: OK, I am fairly certain that 'vorkart' is referring to the first propellant cartridge that's loaded after the shell is rammed and that 'kart' refers to the 2nd cartridge that's loaded after the 'vorkart'.
So 8 plus 155 shells and 163 plus 163 cartridges.
Jasper reported 8 plus 149 20.3cm shells expended against Bismarck. So that leaves 6 x 20.3cm shells unaccounted for. The first possibility is that the initial count of shells expended and reported in the KTB was incorrect, or that Prinz Eugen expended 6 rounds in reply to being engaged by one of Wake-Walker's cruisers as reported on page 18 of the KTB and possibly this was not noted in the KTB.
- Herr Nilsson
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Re: Shells fired by Prinz Eugen
Thank you for your replies!
I think (and I agree) May 23rd is the only occasion PG could have fired shells, because afterwards she was protected by Bismarck. On the other hand neither Brinkmann (KTB) nor the machinery war diary are mentioning any opening of fire except from the 24th.
It's highly speculative, but perhaps Jasper's didn't record the salvo and its fall of shot he couldn't observe anymore due to the change of target. That could explain the "missing" salvo of the first shooting against Hood. IIRC Brinkmann stated 6 salvoes, but jasper only 5 for the first shooting.
"Verschuss" implies the shells were really shot. In my opinion it's unlikely PG wasn't fully equipped.
Yes, "Vorkart" is "Vorkartusche" (fore charge) and "Hüls Kart" is "Hülsenkartusche" (cartridge case charge -> main charge). 8+155 shells and two times 163 cartridges/charges indicates it's not a typo.dunmunro wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 7:39 pm The fact that 8 + 155 = 163 seems significant. I suspect that there was a typo in the M.A.Za. report and/or that it should have read 8 plus 155 for the two subsequent entries which may be referring to fore and aft propellant cartridges.
Edit: OK, I am fairly certain that 'vorkart' is referring to the first propellant cartridge that's loaded after the shell is rammed and that 'kart' refers to the 2nd cartridge that's loaded after the 'vorkart'.
So 8 plus 155 shells and 163 plus 163 cartridges.
Jasper reported 8 plus 149 20.3cm shells expended against Bismarck. So that leaves 6 x 20.3cm shells unaccounted for. The first possibility is that the initial count of shells expended and reported in the KTB was incorrect, or that Prinz Eugen expended 6 rounds in reply to being engaged by one of Wake-Walker's cruisers as reported on page 18 of the KTB and possibly this was not noted in the KTB.
I think (and I agree) May 23rd is the only occasion PG could have fired shells, because afterwards she was protected by Bismarck. On the other hand neither Brinkmann (KTB) nor the machinery war diary are mentioning any opening of fire except from the 24th.
It's highly speculative, but perhaps Jasper's didn't record the salvo and its fall of shot he couldn't observe anymore due to the change of target. That could explain the "missing" salvo of the first shooting against Hood. IIRC Brinkmann stated 6 salvoes, but jasper only 5 for the first shooting.
Regards
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
- hans zurbriggen
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Re: Shells fired by Prinz Eugen
Hello,
6 is a strange number for a 'missed salvo': it should be 1.5 salvos or 1 broadside (e.g. initial 'Vollsalve') with 2 guns failing together, when action started, as all 4 turrets were able to bear on enemy. I don't think Jasper counted himself the salvos. Even if he was unable to see fall of shots, the initial Vollsalve is mentioned in GAR.
The only shell that could not be fired is the one 'blocking' right gun of B turret: I do not know (GAR is generic) whether this shell was removed at sea or it was necessary to reach Brest to have it extracted. This shell/cartridge may well have been unusable afterward, but it's only 1, not 6.
Re. open fire on 23/5, I think it is very unprobable: Norfolk report only mentions Bismarck ('leading ship') opening fire and it would be 2 different ships (plus accounts from Brenneke, Baron and Busch) not recording this event.
My poor opinion is that, while magazines were certainly filled in at departure, possibly some extra stowage was still possible and Jasper was willing to have available as many shots as possible.
hans
6 is a strange number for a 'missed salvo': it should be 1.5 salvos or 1 broadside (e.g. initial 'Vollsalve') with 2 guns failing together, when action started, as all 4 turrets were able to bear on enemy. I don't think Jasper counted himself the salvos. Even if he was unable to see fall of shots, the initial Vollsalve is mentioned in GAR.
The only shell that could not be fired is the one 'blocking' right gun of B turret: I do not know (GAR is generic) whether this shell was removed at sea or it was necessary to reach Brest to have it extracted. This shell/cartridge may well have been unusable afterward, but it's only 1, not 6.
Re. open fire on 23/5, I think it is very unprobable: Norfolk report only mentions Bismarck ('leading ship') opening fire and it would be 2 different ships (plus accounts from Brenneke, Baron and Busch) not recording this event.
My poor opinion is that, while magazines were certainly filled in at departure, possibly some extra stowage was still possible and Jasper was willing to have available as many shots as possible.
hans
Re: Shells fired by Prinz Eugen
It's also possible that 6 x 20.3 cm shells were expended via 'unloading through the muzzle' and since there was no target it might not have been recorded in the KTB.Herr Nilsson wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 9:52 am Thank you for your replies!
"Verschuss" implies the shells were really shot. In my opinion it's unlikely PG wasn't fully equipped.
Yes, "Vorkart" is "Vorkartusche" (fore charge) and "Hüls Kart" is "Hülsenkartusche" (cartridge case charge -> main charge). 8+155 shells and two times 163 cartridges/charges indicates it's not a typo.dunmunro wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 7:39 pm The fact that 8 + 155 = 163 seems significant. I suspect that there was a typo in the M.A.Za. report and/or that it should have read 8 plus 155 for the two subsequent entries which may be referring to fore and aft propellant cartridges.
Edit: OK, I am fairly certain that 'vorkart' is referring to the first propellant cartridge that's loaded after the shell is rammed and that 'kart' refers to the 2nd cartridge that's loaded after the 'vorkart'.
So 8 plus 155 shells and 163 plus 163 cartridges.
Jasper reported 8 plus 149 20.3cm shells expended against Bismarck. So that leaves 6 x 20.3cm shells unaccounted for. The first possibility is that the initial count of shells expended and reported in the KTB was incorrect, or that Prinz Eugen expended 6 rounds in reply to being engaged by one of Wake-Walker's cruisers as reported on page 18 of the KTB and possibly this was not noted in the KTB.
I think (and I agree) May 23rd is the only occasion PG could have fired shells, because afterwards she was protected by Bismarck. On the other hand neither Brinkmann (KTB) nor the machinery war diary are mentioning any opening of fire except from the 24th.
It's highly speculative, but perhaps Jasper's didn't record the salvo and its fall of shot he couldn't observe anymore due to the change of target. That could explain the "missing" salvo of the first shooting against Hood. IIRC Brinkmann stated 6 salvoes, but jasper only 5 for the first shooting.
- hans zurbriggen
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Re: Shells fired by Prinz Eugen
Hello Mr. Dunmunro,
I tend to agree with your explanation above.
hans
I tend to agree with your explanation above.
hans
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Re: Shells fired by Prinz Eugen
Gentlemen,
I would think that trying to unload a heavy shell and cordite was likely to be a bit difficult and possibly hazardous. so when a battle was over did any guns that were still loaded get fired off, or did they try and unload them?
I would think that trying to unload a heavy shell and cordite was likely to be a bit difficult and possibly hazardous. so when a battle was over did any guns that were still loaded get fired off, or did they try and unload them?
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Re: Shells fired by Prinz Eugen
Normally fired; also referred to as "unloading through the muzzle".paul.mercer wrote: ↑Fri Jul 22, 2022 8:21 am Gentlemen,
I would think that trying to unload a heavy shell and cordite was likely to be a bit difficult and possibly hazardous. so when a battle was over did any guns that were still loaded get fired off, or did they try and unload them?