Victorious vs Bismarck

[dunmunro]

https://youtu.be/gHwKZX5SllI?list=TLPQM ... DV3DeuEiEw

[hans zurbriggen]

Hello Mr.Dunmunro,
thanks, a very interesting document that I was able to look at just today. Nice view of an ASW radar panel (minute 12 & 13)
I think images of Victorious navigation were from "archive" because (AFAIK) weather was not so bad on May 24 as it is shown here (e.g. minute 26 & 27). Narrative from HMS Victorious estimates wind from 20 to 24 knots, not a full storm.

However, is image at minute 25 (see picture) showing the actual Swordfish torpedo striking Bismarck ?
Does anybody know how many photos were taken by 825 squadron and where other possible photos can be found ?

hans

Victorious_torpedo.png (44.67 KiB) Viewed 2796 times

[wadinga]

Hi Hans and all,

You are almost certainly correct about the footage being generic archive material. There was no equivalent of the Propaganda Kompanie in RN vessels. There is virtually no photographic material from the British side during the Chase. This site /www.itv.com/news/2012-05-27/photos-of-b ... ing-emerge details the history of three images including the "torpedo strike" which emerged in 2012 with a great fanfare of publicity about "new evidence".

Mr Spurr recalls his grandfather telling him: "Don't believe what you hear about the Bismarck. We were there and we helped sink it", shortly before he joined the Army.

He said: "That one photo, 'Victorious torpedo hits Bismarck', was taken at the start of the final battle on the last day, from the Victorious, corresponding with what my grandfather said.

"Why the Victorious has had no mention even being there on the last day, well, people can come to their own conclusion about that."

Like many recollections passed on to later generations this one seems to have plenty of errors.

However, the weather was not exactly optimum. Those wind speeds indicate "Strong Breeze" with "large waves and extensive foam crests". Local wind may exacerbate wave heights generated elsewhere.

Carriers have to drive into the weather at speed to launch aircraft. Mark Horan's excellent article here: http://www.kbismarck.com/article2.html says little about it other than to use the word "horrific", and to point out the Vic could not maintain enough speed in prevailing conditions to reach the desired launch position, but in the book "Send her Victorious" by Michael Apps there is far more detail.

The flight deck of the carrier represented a most forbidding picture as it pitched up and down in the angry sea whipped into a 32 foot (nearly 10 metre) swell by a howling wind from the north-west.

and

...but it was far more worrying to the aircrews who would have to make a night landing on the violently pitching deck.

and

...a large wave broke over the bows of the carrier and filled the cockpit with seawater. "It was all right " said the pilot later "the bottom of the fuselage had been shot away by Bismarck's gunfire, so it soon drained".

For some of the green crews this landing on a carrier at night was only the second they had ever made on a moving deck.

All the best

wadinga

[hans zurbriggen]

Hello Mr.Wadinga,
unfortunately I cannot open first link in your post.

While we agree that images (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHwKZX5 ... DV3DeuEiEw, kindly posted by Mr.Dunmunro), of the very strong storm showing Victorious in navigation at minute 26-27 are almost surely from archive material, I have a doubt about photo at minute 25 that looks taken in good visibility and 'strong breeze' (a kind of weather making surely uncomfortable landing on a carrier's deck, but not severe as a full storm).

My doubt is whether this photo can be considered 'original' from May 24 night and actually showing hit on Bismarck because it fairly matches description of pilot of Swordfish 5G, W.Garthwaite, (minute 22-26) of smoke seen by his 'observer' after torpedo hit Bismarck.
Garthwaite clearly states (minute 24) in that his 'observer' had a 'service camera' with which he took a photo of actual hit and that negative was immediately developed after landing on Victorious: if this is true and the image at minute 25 is the image taken at that time, possibly we may have other images as well.

hans

[wadinga]

Hi Hans

For reason the URL is truncated add www to the front

itv.com/news/2012-05-27/photos-of-bismarck-sinking-emerge

All the best

wadinga

[hans zurbriggen]

Hello Mr. Wadinga,
thanks, it works now.
With all certainty, we cannot agree Victorious was there, because we have her official report stating otherwise. The photo of the 'torpedo hit' is the same we see in Mr.Spurr's site (on top at center) and his explanation (reported below in text) that it shows 'final blow' on May 27 cannot be true.

However, I still wonder whether the image is actually showing torpedo hit achieved during Victorious 825 squadron attack on May 24-25 (or possibly final blow delivered by Dorsetshire on May 27).

hans

[wadinga]

Hi Hans,

What a wonderful Forum the excellent Mr Rico has provided for us. So much valuable information has surfaced over the years.

If you head to http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4752 you can see the story from ten years ago of the emergence of the photos and the analysis and speculation about their content.

The London Imperial War Museum website does not list the "torpedo hit" photograph, which if it were shot with a "service camera" and developed aboard the ship would be surprising, but not impossible.

As was discussed ten years ago, Victorious was nowhere near Bismarck's sinking, and old sailor's stories that it was otherwise are just "swinging the lantern". (As an old sailor I might have done a bit myself )

Video makers, professional and otherwise have to fill up a lot of visual time whilst the words come out. The example Dunmunro has discovered is better than most for not using irrelevant bits of stock footage of US aircraft/carriers, Italian battleships shooting/getting hit etc etc. And the number of times the luckless Orama has plunged to the depths as a substitute for the ship actually being sunk is beyond counting. (Maybe she should get a posthumous Oscar for "ship most often sunk on video").

All the best

wadinga

[Herr Nilsson]

There are 4 photographs from HMS Victorious in the frontispiece of "THE SINKING OF THE BISMARCK" ADM 234/509.

[dunmunro]

Victorious' position on 26 May 1941 from the Admiralty War Diary:

From VICTORIOUS
My position, course and speed are at 2100B/26, 060º 00' N., 026º 32' W., 345º, 20 knots passing through R/V 063º N. 028º W. at 0500B/27. E.T.A. Hvalfiord 1330B/27.

or about 320nm south of Hvalfiord.

[hans zurbriggen]

Hello Mr. Wadinga,
thank you for finding this thread. Indeed there is a lot of information in this forum.
We all agree Victorious was not close to Bismarck on May 27 and that no torpedo attack was performed after first one.

Hello Mr. Nilsson,
thank you, I had never realized that 3 photos in the cover pages of ADM 234-509 were showing torpedo hit effects on Bismarck and that the 4th is the image at minute 24 of the documentary posted above by Mr. Dunmunro. Not certain whether the first one shows Bismarck sailing.

Looking into Squadron 825 report in ADM 234-509 (pag. 128, enclosure 4 to HMS Victorious report) it says (my underlined):
'Attack between 2359 24 to 0010 25
0005 During the getaway Bismarck reduced speed after what appeared to be a hit (water column flung in the air on the staroard side amidship). This was followed quickly by large quantities of heavy black and white smoke (see attached photographs).'
It looks like they were attached (without very precise caption: 'Four photographs received from H.M.S. Victorious') to ADM 234-509 but description of smoke is very precise and a perfect match.

It looks like these photos exist, that they show Victorious torpedo hit and I wonder whether they are just 4 of them and whether their negatives still exist.

hans

[paulcadogan]

I think images of Victorious navigation were from "archive" because (AFAIK) weather was not so bad on May 24 as it is shown here (e.g. minute 26 & 27). Narrative from HMS Victorious estimates wind from 20 to 24 knots, not a full storm.

Hi all,

The footage in question of Victorious in heavy seas I think is from a film of the operation covering the PQ-12 convoy in March 1942 when she was with KGV, Duke of York, Renown and Berwick, and made the attack on Tirpitz. The big ships were (sort of) in line ahead with KGV leading, followed by Victorious, then DoY then Renown.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mwjrf0gZjIE

The above footage, posted as "Heavy Seas", seems to be a combination of clips shot from different ships - from Berwick (you'll recognize the County class 8-inch turret in the first minute), from KGV (showing Victorious and DoY astern), from DoY showing Victorious and KGV ahead and, at the very end of the video, Renown off her port quarter -you can see a 14-inch gun from A-turret. (That was a VERY brave camera man though it seems that was shot when the seas were calmer!)

Paul

[HMSVF]

I think images of Victorious navigation were from "archive" because (AFAIK) weather was not so bad on May 24 as it is shown here (e.g. minute 26 & 27). Narrative from HMS Victorious estimates wind from 20 to 24 knots, not a full storm.

Hi all,

The footage in question of Victorious in heavy seas I think is from a film of the operation covering the PQ-12 convoy in March 1942 when she was with KGV, Duke of York, Renown and Berwick, and made the attack on Tirpitz. The big ships were (sort of) in line ahead with KGV leading, followed by Victorious, then DoY then Renown.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mwjrf0gZjIE

The above footage, posted as "Heavy Seas", seems to be a combination of clips shot from different ships - from Berwick (you'll recognize the County class 8-inch turret in the first minute), from KGV (showing Victorious and DoY astern), from DoY showing Victorious and KGV ahead and, at the very end of the video, Renown off her port quarter -you can see a 14-inch gun from A-turret. (That was a VERY brave camera man though it seems that was shot when the seas were calmer!)

Paul

There is also a shedload of ice on the KGV at 0:17 and very iced guardrails on whatever warship at 0:41 onwards.