Why didn't Lutjens go all out to destroy Norfolk and Suffolk?

[RF]

Knowing that Rheinubung was subject to the Fuhrer inspired directive of ''no unnecessary risks'' and the dangers of torpedo attack in poor visibility one can initially understand the failure of Lutjens to order an all out attack on Wake-Walkers cruisers.

However thinking rationally (and aggressively) an all out assault on these cruisers could have saved Bismarck a lot of trouble later on. I also wonder whether having Marschall as Fleet Commander (given that he was something of a ''loose cannon'') instead of Lutjens would have led to just such an assault.
Norfolk and Suffolk being both heavy cruisers were valuable ships in their own right and in my view (looking at it from the German angle) well worth sinking as it would weaken the blockade line fire power and reduce the number of heavy ships available to go after other German raiders such as the hilfskreuzer.
Seapower is based on aggression and taking reasonable risks, the whole history of the Royal Navy throughout the eighteenth/nineteenth centuries encapsulates that and I think any Fleet Commander in Bismarck with the attitude of British and American naval commanders would have done that and to hell with operational orders. Rommel was an aggressive panzer commander and in North Africa did his own thing, even ignoring the Fuhrer order of ''no retreat'' at El Alamein and getting away with it.

What do other people think? Would you let these cruisers follow you or would you turn 180 degrees and go for them?

[HMSVF]

Knowing that Rheinubung was subject to the Fuhrer inspired directive of ''no unnecessary risks'' and the dangers of torpedo attack in poor visibility one can initially understand the failure of Lutjens to order an all out attack on Wake-Walkers cruisers.

However thinking rationally (and aggressively) an all out assault on these cruisers could have saved Bismarck a lot of trouble later on. I also wonder whether having Marschall as Fleet Commander (given that he was something of a ''loose cannon'') instead of Lutjens would have led to just such an assault.
Norfolk and Suffolk being both heavy cruisers were valuable ships in their own right and in my view (looking at it from the German angle) well worth sinking as it would weaken the blockade line fire power and reduce the number of heavy ships available to go after other German raiders such as the hilfskreuzer.
Seapower is based on aggression and taking reasonable risks, the whole history of the Royal Navy throughout the eighteenth/nineteenth centuries encapsulates that and I think any Fleet Commander in Bismarck with the attitude of British and American naval commanders would have done that and to hell with operational orders. Rommel was an aggressive panzer commander and in North Africa did his own thing, even ignoring the Fuhrer order of ''no retreat'' at El Alamein and getting away with it.

What do other people think? Would you let these cruisers follow you or would you turn 180 degrees and go for them?

Counties good for 32knots? Suffolk has a decent radar set that can traverse? Could end up a bit of wild goose (stern) chase that could could use up a fair bit of ammunition trying to sink 2 ships that the RN could replace. Didnt Bismarck's radar give out due to the concussive effect of her guns firing, hence the swapping of formation places? If that was the case your then relying on optics in murky weather against two radar equipped vessels.

I suppose I'm saying that Wake Walker isn't going to offer himself up on a smorgers board to Luitjens

The mission against merchant shipping really would have been over (though I still think it was a daft premise to send your queen of the board to do what a pawn should do).


BW


HMSVF

[Steve Crandell]

Really bad visibility with the attendant risk of a torpedo hit requiring a trip all the way back to Germany for repairs. There was also the possibility that there were unseen DDs with the cruiser he saw.

[hans zurbriggen]

Hello all,
in retrospect, probably the best thing to do was to send PG to deal with SF during the night (to use a battleship to hunt a cruiser is imho not an option, Lütjens had already tried to lure SF, without success). PG had good radars, she was bigger, faster (at that time) and better armed than a County cruiser. PG could have got rid of SF, while NF was so far away to be able to intervene only later.
Even without sinking SF and/or NF, contact with BS would have been broken during PG chase. However, BS would have been left alone and convoy attacks would have been more difficult to execute with success.

hans

[RF]

Using Prinz Eugen to attack the Suffolk on its own I think is risky, better to use the longer and heavier reach of Bismarck's guns?

If close ship contact is an issue then keep Bismarck and Prinz Eugen together in joint attack, indeed Bismarck's fairly powerful secondary battery also comes into play here.

[HMSVF]

Using Prinz Eugen to attack the Suffolk on its own I think is risky, better to use the longer and heavier reach of Bismarck's guns?

If close ship contact is an issue then keep Bismarck and Prinz Eugen together in joint attack, indeed Bismarck's fairly powerful secondary battery also comes into play here.

But is Wake Walker going to play that game?

He is under no obligation to engage,just to keep contact. If Lutjens performs a 'crazy Ivan' and goes chasing after Norfolk and Suffolk back up the Denmark Straight then he is still doing his job? In fact he maybe exceeding what's expected as he is now not only keeping contact but drawing the threat away from the Atlantic convoys and potentially allowing the RN time to bring a more cohesive squadron together.

Lutjens problem was that time and technology had moved on. The mission was flawed. The moment you send out the largest (known) warship in the world out to the busiest ocean at a time when you have reliable radar and long range air reconnaissance you are up against it.There would be a major RN response. There had to be. Now if this was 1914-18 it was achievable. It was probably achievable in 1939 and 1940 (in the latter case due to the imminent threat of invasion and the general chaos the UK found itself in). In 1941? No,I think the time had passed for that kind of surface raiding. It remained doable in the Artic to some extent due to the availability of German air cover, available bases and the environment.


IMHO Bismarck would have been far better employed off Norway along with the other major vessels of the Kreigsmarine than a very risky venture into the Atlantic.

[dunmunro]

Using Prinz Eugen to attack the Suffolk on its own I think is risky, better to use the longer and heavier reach of Bismarck's guns?

If close ship contact is an issue then keep Bismarck and Prinz Eugen together in joint attack, indeed Bismarck's fairly powerful secondary battery also comes into play here.

But is Wake Walker going to play that game?

He is under no obligation to engage,just to keep contact. If Lutjens performs a 'crazy Ivan' and goes chasing after Norfolk and Suffolk back up the Denmark Straight then he is still doing his job? In fact he maybe exceeding what's expected as he is now not only keeping contact but drawing the threat away from the Atlantic convoys and potentially allowing the RN time to bring a more cohesive squadron together.

Lutjens problem was that time and technology had moved on. The mission was flawed. The moment you send out the largest (known) warship in the world out to the busiest ocean at a time when you have reliable radar and long range air reconnaissance you are up against it.There would be a major RN response. There had to be. Now if this was 1914-18 it was achievable. It was probably achievable in 1939 and 1940 (in the latter case due to the imminent threat of invasion and the general chaos the UK found itself in). In 1941? No,I think the time had passed for that kind of surface raiding. It remained doable in the Artic to some extent due to the availability of German air cover, available bases and the environment.


IMHO Bismarck would have been far better employed off Norway along with the other major vessels of the Kreigsmarine than a very risky venture into the Atlantic.

The sortie was timed to coincide with the invasion of Crete, so Lutjens knew that he was slave, to some extent, to external events. Being paired with a very short range cruiser was another handicap.

[paulcadogan]

Hi guys,

They might have been able to catch Norfolk in a trap but not Suffolk. Recall Suffolk being on her toes before and during the DS battle making two complete loops at the mere hint that the Germans had reversed course - once during the initial interception by BC1 causing her to fall more behind, then again after the battle when the Sunderland aircraft fooled her radar operators.

Then again, Suffolk did get attacked during the separation of PG later in the day, and, who knows, if it hadn't been for the presence and intervention of PoW, she might have been in a dicey situation.

Using Prinz Eugen alone for an attack might not have been an option that Lutjens would follow as it was not German policy to deliberately engage an enemy of equal strength and engaging another 8-inch cruiser carried risk of serious damage. But in fact, Wake-Walker had a contingency plan for something of that eventuality.

If it was detected the BS and PG had separated, WW planned to close and engage PG with Norfolk while Suffolk would hang onto Bismarck's heels. Of course, that opens a range of possibilities on how that would have played out. In armour, Norfolk was significantly less protected than Suffolk. Suffolk's belt protection was similar to Berwick's, which had stood up pretty well to Hipper's shells months earlier. Norfolk lacked the belt protection and is probably fortunate the eventuality never arose.

[paul.mercer]

Gentlemen,
Another point that might be worth considering, had Bismarck turned and tried to chase Suffolk with the intention of sinking her rather than just chasing her off he would be using up his time that was going to allow him to get out into the Atlantic, which may have allowed Hood and PoW more time to get in to a more favourable position to attack.
I don't think Lutjens had any intention of chasing either of the cruisers, his mission was too important to mess about like that, as hs already been mentioned, battleships don't waste their time, fuel and ammunition trying to chase down cruisers - that's what battlecruisers were meant to do.

[HMSVF]

Gentlemen,
Another point that might be worth considering, had Bismarck turned and tried to chase Suffolk with the intention of sinking her rather than just chasing her off he would be using up his time that was going to allow him to get out into the Atlantic, which may have allowed Hood and PoW more time to get in to a more favourable position to attack.
I don't think Lutjens had any intention of chasing either of the cruisers, his mission was too important to mess about like that, as hs already been mentioned, battleships don't waste their time, fuel and ammunition trying to chase down cruisers - that's what battlecruisers were meant to do.

Hi Paul,

That's my feeling. The premise of this mission was to cause havoc with Atlantic shipping? Lutjens best chance to do this was to remain undetected. Unfortunately when the radar equipped Norfolk and Suffolk turn up that chance has been lost. Now if they hadn't have been radar equipped then he stood a chance of being able to get away and carry out the plan (though obviously the RN would have some idea of where they might be).

If Bismarck does a 180 and goes after Suffolk and Norfolk then as you point out time is being wasted as is fuel and ammunition. If PE is sent to do mischief then their is a fair chance that she would eventually come a cropper as despite being a superior ship its unlikely that she would escape damage. Might not be a problem if she off Norway, could be a big problem if you are several thousand miles away from home.

And the RN still know that the Bismarck is going to exit the Denmark Strait.

[Steve Crandell]

There was also the possibility that Lutjens could get out into the North Atlantic without having to fight an engagement at all, and he would be throwing away that chance by going after Suffolk.

[HMSVF]

I suppose the one thing that could have made a difference would have been an operational Graf Zeppelin...


(If they could see the target)

[Steve Crandell]

I suppose the one thing that could have made a difference would have been an operational Graf Zeppelin...


(If they could see the target)

I suppose, but do you realize how many years it took the US, UK, and IJN to evolve working naval aviation? You really need a training CV, for one thing, but in any case it's an evolutionary process and the Germans were very early on that curve. The Me109 had trouble enough not killing pilots landing on a grass field, let alone a CV.

[HMSVF]

I suppose the one thing that could have made a difference would have been an operational Graf Zeppelin...


(If they could see the target)

I suppose, but do you realize how many years it took the US, UK, and IJN to evolve working naval aviation? You really need a training CV, for one thing, but in any case it's an evolutionary process and the Germans were very early on that curve. The Me109 had trouble enough not killing pilots landing on a grass field, let alone a CV.

Absolutely! There were good reasons why Graf Zeppelin was never near completion let alone operational! I was just musing that the only thing that might have changed Operation Rheinburg was a carrier.

Admittedly its a hell of a "what if"!

[paul.mercer]

Gentlemen,
Another point that might be worth considering, had Bismarck turned and tried to chase Suffolk with the intention of sinking her rather than just chasing her off he would be using up his time that was going to allow him to get out into the Atlantic, which may have allowed Hood and PoW more time to get in to a more favourable position to attack.
I don't think Lutjens had any intention of chasing either of the cruisers, his mission was too important to mess about like that, as hs already been mentioned, battleships don't waste their time, fuel and ammunition trying to chase down cruisers - that's what battlecruisers were meant to do.

Hi Paul,

That's my feeling. The premise of this mission was to cause havoc with Atlantic shipping? Lutjens best chance to do this was to remain undetected. Unfortunately when the radar equipped Norfolk and Suffolk turn up that chance has been lost. Now if they hadn't have been radar equipped then he stood a chance of being able to get away and carry out the plan (though obviously the RN would have some idea of where they might be).

If Bismarck does a 180 and goes after Suffolk and Norfolk then as you point out time is being wasted as is fuel and ammunition. If PE is sent to do mischief then their is a fair chance that she would eventually come a cropper as despite being a superior ship its unlikely that she would escape damage. Might not be a problem if she off Norway, could be a big problem if you are several thousand miles away from home.

And the RN still know that the Bismarck is going to exit the Denmark Strait.

Hi HMSVF
I suppose this is really one for the hypothetical section really, but here goes anyway! Let us say after trying to catch the RN cruisers Bismarck turns to her original course but sends PE off after Suffolk and engages her. Both suffer heavy damage, Suffolk limps back to Scarpa and as PE is in no fit state to go raiding so she turns back for home - avoiding Norfolk.
Meanwhile Hood and PoW have made good progress and have got ahead of Bismarck and having closed the range so Hood avoids plunging fire are waiting for Bismarck to appear. Bismarck now faces 18 heavy guns and no PE to back her up. She perhaps has the option of turning for home but does not know how many other RN ships maybe waiting, will she try and run or fight?