Was the battleship Bismarck really the best of its time?

Discussions about the history of the ship, technical details, etc.

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fsimon
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Re: Was the battleship Bismarck really the best of its time?

Post by fsimon »

Hey Steve,
I was on MBTs as well. Leopard 2. The aiming and stabilization was simmilar, but instead of having to realign your crosshairs on the target after lasing, the gun and turret would move for alignment.
I find it spectacular, that in 1940 a fire control system for a battleship was compensating for movement by automatically initiating firing when moving through the correct angle when in motion.
Thorsten, who would be turning the turret through the correct angle, the turret crew or the centralized fire control station?
Best regards
Frank
Steve Crandell
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Re: Was the battleship Bismarck really the best of its time?

Post by Steve Crandell »

fsimon wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 5:00 pm Hey Steve,
I was on MBTs as well. Leopard 2. The aiming and stabilization was simmilar, but instead of having to realign your crosshairs on the target after lasing, the gun and turret would move for alignment.
I find it spectacular, that in 1940 a fire control system for a battleship was compensating for movement by automatically initiating firing when moving through the correct angle when in motion.
Thorsten, who would be turning the turret through the correct angle, the turret crew or the centralized fire control station?
Best regards
Frank
I think my most spectacular achievement was when we were moving forward to clear a berm before firing a live round at a target on the range. I did all the FC stuff using the thermal sight on top of the turret as usual, but forgot to check the coaxial sight for clearance and fired a round into the berm about 30 feet in front of us.
fsimon
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Re: Was the battleship Bismarck really the best of its time?

Post by fsimon »

I bet, that was spectacular, Steve.
Concerning the Leopard 2 Thosten is correct. The gun only fires when it is on target, i.e. if it is not perfectly on target due to movement of the tank and the stabilization system can not cope with the movement, firing is delayed until the gun is on target again. On the Leopard this is only milliseconds. So the gunner woud not even recognice the delay and would have the impression that firing is immediate. I think the same is implemented on the Abrams.

Best regards
Frank
Steve Crandell
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Re: Was the battleship Bismarck really the best of its time?

Post by Steve Crandell »

fsimon wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:09 pm I bet, that was spectacular, Steve.
Concerning the Leopard 2 Thosten is correct. The gun only fires when it is on target, i.e. if it is not perfectly on target due to movement of the tank and the stabilization system can not cope with the movement, firing is delayed until the gun is on target again. On the Leopard this is only milliseconds. So the gunner woud not even recognice the delay and would have the impression that firing is immediate. I think the same is implemented on the Abrams.

Best regards
Frank
How does the FC system know the gun is on target? Suppose the target is a building, a tank, a truck, or infantry in the open. How can the FC system tell which target you are shooting at and whether it moved? A human can obviously see those things, but I can't imagine a tank FC computer knowing the difference. Obviously it's possible with naval targets because it is a radar contact surrounded by flat ocean.
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Re: Was the battleship Bismarck really the best of its time?

Post by fsimon »

Hello Steve,
The FC sytem calculates elevation and bearing after the gunner aimes at a bearing and elevatin for a minimum amount of time and lases for range. The hydraulic or electric system moves the gun and turret to the calculated elevation and bearing. The stabilisation system compensates for own tank movements. If it is unable to compensate for that movement and thus not able to get to the required elevation and or bearing firing is momentarily inhibited until the required elevation and bearing are achieved again. So, the FC system doen not know what the target is, but it knows what the required elevation and bearing are which it got told by the gunner in form of laser range, crosshair angles and crosshair angular movement during aiming time.
This is very similar to what Bismarck's RPC did.
Best regards
Frank
Last edited by fsimon on Thu Nov 10, 2022 6:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
fsimon
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Re: Was the battleship Bismarck really the best of its time?

Post by fsimon »

double post deleted,
Frank
Thorsten Wahl
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Re: Was the battleship Bismarck really the best of its time?

Post by Thorsten Wahl »

fsimon wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 5:00 pm ...
Thorsten, who would be turning the turret through the correct angle, the turret crew or the centralized fire control station?
Best regards
Frank
Firing is initiated by the central firecontrol station,
Meine Herren, es kann ein siebenjähriger, es kann ein dreißigjähriger Krieg werden – und wehe dem, der zuerst die Lunte in das Pulverfaß schleudert!
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Re: Was the battleship Bismarck really the best of its time?

Post by fsimon »

Thank you Thorsten!
Do you know of any other battleship or cruiser fire control system stabilizing for elevation and bearing in any way as Bismarck's?
Was this a unique feature or was it more common than I am aware of?
Best regards
Frank
Byron Angel
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Re: Was the battleship Bismarck really the best of its time?

Post by Byron Angel »

fsimon wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 1:53 pm Thank you Thorsten!
Do you know of any other battleship or cruiser fire control system stabilizing for elevation and bearing in any way as Bismarck's?
Was this a unique feature or was it more common than I am aware of?
Best regards
Frank

Can't prove it, but I suspect that Prinz Eugen may have been similarly equipped. Prinz Eugen was awarded as a war prize to the USA after the war. Before her disposal at the Bikini Atoll A-Bomb tests, she and her German crew conducted a gunnery exercise off the coast of New England which allegedly rather impressed the USN observers aboard.

I've been hunting many years for any USN reports (ONI or otherwsie) related to that gunnery exercise. I am still looking.

Byron
Thorsten Wahl
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Re: Was the battleship Bismarck really the best of its time?

Post by Thorsten Wahl »

Scharnhorst Hipper and Gneisenau Blücher had the C/35 S firecontrolequipment

Tirpitz Bismarck Seydlitz C/38 S firecontroequpment

both systems were similar and share similar capabilities in general, with the C38 somwhat more advanced
Meine Herren, es kann ein siebenjähriger, es kann ein dreißigjähriger Krieg werden – und wehe dem, der zuerst die Lunte in das Pulverfaß schleudert!
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hans zurbriggen
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Re: Was the battleship Bismarck really the best of its time?

Post by hans zurbriggen »

Hello Mr. Wahl,
thanks for these info.
Do you know whether and which FCequipment did Panzerschiffe had ?

hans
fsimon
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Re: Was the battleship Bismarck really the best of its time?

Post by fsimon »

Thank you very much Thorsten,
I was about to post the same question as Hans...and wonder, if other navies had simmilar stabilisation technologies commissioned on their cruisers or battleships.
Thorsten, I suppose Prinz Eugen also had the C/38 S fire control system?
Frank
ede144
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Re: Was the battleship Bismarck really the best of its time?

Post by ede144 »

Byron Angel wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 12:34 am
fsimon wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 1:53 pm Thank you Thorsten!
Do you know of any other battleship or cruiser fire control system stabilizing for elevation and bearing in any way as Bismarck's?
Was this a unique feature or was it more common than I am aware of?
Best regards
Frank

Can't prove it, but I suspect that Prinz Eugen may have been similarly equipped. Prinz Eugen was awarded as a war prize to the USA after the war. Before her disposal at the Bikini Atoll A-Bomb tests, she and her German crew conducted a gunnery exercise off the coast of New England which allegedly rather impressed the USN observers aboard.

I've been hunting many years for any USN reports (ONI or otherwsie) related to that gunnery exercise. I am still looking.

Byron
There used to be a report on prinzeugen.com
Unfortunately I can't find it anymore
Thorsten Wahl
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Re: Was the battleship Bismarck really the best of its time?

Post by Thorsten Wahl »

checked my records.

Indeed Prinz Eugen had the C38 firecontrol equipment. See Paul Schmalenbach (1 AO Prinz Eugen) - "Die Geschichte der deutschen Schiffsartillerie"

my first memo was from a device scheme from 6.12.1938 here is the C/35 still assigned.

Generations of FC equipment capital ships starting with C/32 from "Entwicklungstabelle Seeziel Feuerleitungsanlagen 1923-1938 from 22.08.1939"
C/32 Deutschland
C/33 Scheer Spee Nürnberg
C/35 Scharnhorst Gneisenau Hipper
C/38 Bismarck Tirpitz Seydlitz Prinz Eugen

starting with C/35 default measuring units were 3-10 m RuM (optical rangefinders) and FuMG (RADAR) + Target disposer
Meine Herren, es kann ein siebenjähriger, es kann ein dreißigjähriger Krieg werden – und wehe dem, der zuerst die Lunte in das Pulverfaß schleudert!
fsimon
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Re: Was the battleship Bismarck really the best of its time?

Post by fsimon »

Thank you very much Thorsten.
I guess, you can recomment the book of Paul Schmalenbach - "Die Geschichte der deutschen Schiffsartillerie".
I think I am going to get me that book.
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