Was the battleship Bismarck really the best of its time?
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Re: Was the battleship Bismarck really the best of its time?
Hey Steve,
I was on MBTs as well. Leopard 2. The aiming and stabilization was simmilar, but instead of having to realign your crosshairs on the target after lasing, the gun and turret would move for alignment.
I find it spectacular, that in 1940 a fire control system for a battleship was compensating for movement by automatically initiating firing when moving through the correct angle when in motion.
Thorsten, who would be turning the turret through the correct angle, the turret crew or the centralized fire control station?
Best regards
Frank
I was on MBTs as well. Leopard 2. The aiming and stabilization was simmilar, but instead of having to realign your crosshairs on the target after lasing, the gun and turret would move for alignment.
I find it spectacular, that in 1940 a fire control system for a battleship was compensating for movement by automatically initiating firing when moving through the correct angle when in motion.
Thorsten, who would be turning the turret through the correct angle, the turret crew or the centralized fire control station?
Best regards
Frank
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Re: Was the battleship Bismarck really the best of its time?
I think my most spectacular achievement was when we were moving forward to clear a berm before firing a live round at a target on the range. I did all the FC stuff using the thermal sight on top of the turret as usual, but forgot to check the coaxial sight for clearance and fired a round into the berm about 30 feet in front of us.fsimon wrote: ↑Wed Nov 09, 2022 5:00 pm Hey Steve,
I was on MBTs as well. Leopard 2. The aiming and stabilization was simmilar, but instead of having to realign your crosshairs on the target after lasing, the gun and turret would move for alignment.
I find it spectacular, that in 1940 a fire control system for a battleship was compensating for movement by automatically initiating firing when moving through the correct angle when in motion.
Thorsten, who would be turning the turret through the correct angle, the turret crew or the centralized fire control station?
Best regards
Frank
Re: Was the battleship Bismarck really the best of its time?
I bet, that was spectacular, Steve.
Concerning the Leopard 2 Thosten is correct. The gun only fires when it is on target, i.e. if it is not perfectly on target due to movement of the tank and the stabilization system can not cope with the movement, firing is delayed until the gun is on target again. On the Leopard this is only milliseconds. So the gunner woud not even recognice the delay and would have the impression that firing is immediate. I think the same is implemented on the Abrams.
Best regards
Frank
Concerning the Leopard 2 Thosten is correct. The gun only fires when it is on target, i.e. if it is not perfectly on target due to movement of the tank and the stabilization system can not cope with the movement, firing is delayed until the gun is on target again. On the Leopard this is only milliseconds. So the gunner woud not even recognice the delay and would have the impression that firing is immediate. I think the same is implemented on the Abrams.
Best regards
Frank
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Re: Was the battleship Bismarck really the best of its time?
How does the FC system know the gun is on target? Suppose the target is a building, a tank, a truck, or infantry in the open. How can the FC system tell which target you are shooting at and whether it moved? A human can obviously see those things, but I can't imagine a tank FC computer knowing the difference. Obviously it's possible with naval targets because it is a radar contact surrounded by flat ocean.fsimon wrote: ↑Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:09 pm I bet, that was spectacular, Steve.
Concerning the Leopard 2 Thosten is correct. The gun only fires when it is on target, i.e. if it is not perfectly on target due to movement of the tank and the stabilization system can not cope with the movement, firing is delayed until the gun is on target again. On the Leopard this is only milliseconds. So the gunner woud not even recognice the delay and would have the impression that firing is immediate. I think the same is implemented on the Abrams.
Best regards
Frank
Re: Was the battleship Bismarck really the best of its time?
Hello Steve,
The FC sytem calculates elevation and bearing after the gunner aimes at a bearing and elevatin for a minimum amount of time and lases for range. The hydraulic or electric system moves the gun and turret to the calculated elevation and bearing. The stabilisation system compensates for own tank movements. If it is unable to compensate for that movement and thus not able to get to the required elevation and or bearing firing is momentarily inhibited until the required elevation and bearing are achieved again. So, the FC system doen not know what the target is, but it knows what the required elevation and bearing are which it got told by the gunner in form of laser range, crosshair angles and crosshair angular movement during aiming time.
This is very similar to what Bismarck's RPC did.
Best regards
Frank
The FC sytem calculates elevation and bearing after the gunner aimes at a bearing and elevatin for a minimum amount of time and lases for range. The hydraulic or electric system moves the gun and turret to the calculated elevation and bearing. The stabilisation system compensates for own tank movements. If it is unable to compensate for that movement and thus not able to get to the required elevation and or bearing firing is momentarily inhibited until the required elevation and bearing are achieved again. So, the FC system doen not know what the target is, but it knows what the required elevation and bearing are which it got told by the gunner in form of laser range, crosshair angles and crosshair angular movement during aiming time.
This is very similar to what Bismarck's RPC did.
Best regards
Frank
Last edited by fsimon on Thu Nov 10, 2022 6:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Was the battleship Bismarck really the best of its time?
double post deleted,
Frank
Frank
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Re: Was the battleship Bismarck really the best of its time?
Firing is initiated by the central firecontrol station,
Meine Herren, es kann ein siebenjähriger, es kann ein dreißigjähriger Krieg werden – und wehe dem, der zuerst die Lunte in das Pulverfaß schleudert!
Re: Was the battleship Bismarck really the best of its time?
Thank you Thorsten!
Do you know of any other battleship or cruiser fire control system stabilizing for elevation and bearing in any way as Bismarck's?
Was this a unique feature or was it more common than I am aware of?
Best regards
Frank
Do you know of any other battleship or cruiser fire control system stabilizing for elevation and bearing in any way as Bismarck's?
Was this a unique feature or was it more common than I am aware of?
Best regards
Frank
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Re: Was the battleship Bismarck really the best of its time?
Can't prove it, but I suspect that Prinz Eugen may have been similarly equipped. Prinz Eugen was awarded as a war prize to the USA after the war. Before her disposal at the Bikini Atoll A-Bomb tests, she and her German crew conducted a gunnery exercise off the coast of New England which allegedly rather impressed the USN observers aboard.
I've been hunting many years for any USN reports (ONI or otherwsie) related to that gunnery exercise. I am still looking.
Byron
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Re: Was the battleship Bismarck really the best of its time?
Scharnhorst Hipper and Gneisenau Blücher had the C/35 S firecontrolequipment
Tirpitz Bismarck Seydlitz C/38 S firecontroequpment
both systems were similar and share similar capabilities in general, with the C38 somwhat more advanced
Tirpitz Bismarck Seydlitz C/38 S firecontroequpment
both systems were similar and share similar capabilities in general, with the C38 somwhat more advanced
Meine Herren, es kann ein siebenjähriger, es kann ein dreißigjähriger Krieg werden – und wehe dem, der zuerst die Lunte in das Pulverfaß schleudert!
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Re: Was the battleship Bismarck really the best of its time?
Hello Mr. Wahl,
thanks for these info.
Do you know whether and which FCequipment did Panzerschiffe had ?
hans
thanks for these info.
Do you know whether and which FCequipment did Panzerschiffe had ?
hans
Re: Was the battleship Bismarck really the best of its time?
Thank you very much Thorsten,
I was about to post the same question as Hans...and wonder, if other navies had simmilar stabilisation technologies commissioned on their cruisers or battleships.
Thorsten, I suppose Prinz Eugen also had the C/38 S fire control system?
Frank
I was about to post the same question as Hans...and wonder, if other navies had simmilar stabilisation technologies commissioned on their cruisers or battleships.
Thorsten, I suppose Prinz Eugen also had the C/38 S fire control system?
Frank
Re: Was the battleship Bismarck really the best of its time?
There used to be a report on prinzeugen.comByron Angel wrote: ↑Fri Nov 11, 2022 12:34 am
Can't prove it, but I suspect that Prinz Eugen may have been similarly equipped. Prinz Eugen was awarded as a war prize to the USA after the war. Before her disposal at the Bikini Atoll A-Bomb tests, she and her German crew conducted a gunnery exercise off the coast of New England which allegedly rather impressed the USN observers aboard.
I've been hunting many years for any USN reports (ONI or otherwsie) related to that gunnery exercise. I am still looking.
Byron
Unfortunately I can't find it anymore
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Re: Was the battleship Bismarck really the best of its time?
checked my records.
Indeed Prinz Eugen had the C38 firecontrol equipment. See Paul Schmalenbach (1 AO Prinz Eugen) - "Die Geschichte der deutschen Schiffsartillerie"
my first memo was from a device scheme from 6.12.1938 here is the C/35 still assigned.
Generations of FC equipment capital ships starting with C/32 from "Entwicklungstabelle Seeziel Feuerleitungsanlagen 1923-1938 from 22.08.1939"
C/32 Deutschland
C/33 Scheer Spee Nürnberg
C/35 Scharnhorst Gneisenau Hipper
C/38 Bismarck Tirpitz Seydlitz Prinz Eugen
starting with C/35 default measuring units were 3-10 m RuM (optical rangefinders) and FuMG (RADAR) + Target disposer
Indeed Prinz Eugen had the C38 firecontrol equipment. See Paul Schmalenbach (1 AO Prinz Eugen) - "Die Geschichte der deutschen Schiffsartillerie"
my first memo was from a device scheme from 6.12.1938 here is the C/35 still assigned.
Generations of FC equipment capital ships starting with C/32 from "Entwicklungstabelle Seeziel Feuerleitungsanlagen 1923-1938 from 22.08.1939"
C/32 Deutschland
C/33 Scheer Spee Nürnberg
C/35 Scharnhorst Gneisenau Hipper
C/38 Bismarck Tirpitz Seydlitz Prinz Eugen
starting with C/35 default measuring units were 3-10 m RuM (optical rangefinders) and FuMG (RADAR) + Target disposer
Meine Herren, es kann ein siebenjähriger, es kann ein dreißigjähriger Krieg werden – und wehe dem, der zuerst die Lunte in das Pulverfaß schleudert!
Re: Was the battleship Bismarck really the best of its time?
Thank you very much Thorsten.
I guess, you can recomment the book of Paul Schmalenbach - "Die Geschichte der deutschen Schiffsartillerie".
I think I am going to get me that book.
I guess, you can recomment the book of Paul Schmalenbach - "Die Geschichte der deutschen Schiffsartillerie".
I think I am going to get me that book.