Bismarck in Bergen

[Terje Langoy]

Hello...

I was browsing through this forum index without finding a topic concernig my questions so I'll just make a new post.

As known, the Bismarck was spotted by the Gotland during her voyage through Kattegat. This would of course mean that Lutjens was aware of his ships being spotted early, although by a neutral nation. Does anyone know what were his thoughts about this at the moment? Did he rely on the Swedish to keep the information to themselves?

Why did he stop in Bergen? The Bismarck never refuelled and I guess that the PE could have carried this out while in transit. And since the mission relied on discretion, what difference would it make if the Bismarck continued with her striped camouflage? Lutjens, knowing that the Gotland most probably had reported their presence, decided to anchor in Bergen instead of staying mobile. Does anyone know why? He must have been aware of the norwegian resistance, right? Would the breakout offered a better chance of success if they had sailed nonstop towards DS?

Best Regards

[tommy303]

Lutjens suspected the mission had been compromised and stopping in Bergen offered several advantages. If spotted there a stop over would keep the British guessing--was it a redeployment, had the squadron been escorting supply ships, was it preparation for a break out in the near future or the first leg of a sortie, etc. Second, it allowed him, but hooking up to a telephone bouy to speak directly with Group North without having to use radio and run the risk of RDF location. Third, Prinz Eugen could refuel. Lastly, if the mission had been compromised, he did not want to be spotted in daylight during the northern leg of the trip across the North Sea; instead he could await better conditions with air cover while at anchor.

[Terje Langoy]

But it would also enable the norwegians to monitor her movements from the moment she dropped anchor until she left. According to the material I've come across, she left through Hjeltefjorden and out in open waters through Fedjeosen. From Grimstadfjorden to Fedjeosen she would be sailing north in coastal waters under supervision from many "curious eyes" Lutjens would only keep them guessing as long as the Bismarck stayed at anchor, right? I mean, in the very moment the British recieve any message of the Bismarck heading north from Bergen, Lutjens would be back to where he was before the stop, wouldn't he? It boils down to the question whether the norwegian resistance provided any intelligence upon the Bismarck while in Bergen. I don't know...

Would you be so kind as to explain the phrase RDF-location? Is this simply detecting radio waves or picking up german messages?

Regards

[Karl Heidenreich]

The Norwegian resistance gave invaluable info to the British all along the war. Any confidence the Germans had about being safe from enemy eyes while at Norway was false. And if they knew about it then they choose from the lesser of two evils.
I never understood why, being at Norway and having PE refueling, didn´t Bismarck did the same. Orders? Plans? Lutjens didn´t knew, for a fact, if he would stay six minutes or six days in Norway and neither what problems might arise after their departure. Logic points to be prepared and so had the tanks full of fuel. It was a pit stop in which while waiting for the tires to be changed you can refuel.

[tommy303]

RDF= radio direction finding. If one had two RDF stations they could plot the originating position of the sender by intersecting the lines.

[tommy303]

Refueling in Norway was not in the orders, neither was the stop over. In the first instance Lutjens made use of the time to refuel PE which had the shortest range of the two ships. However, there was only one tanker available for that and after topping off Prinz Eugen it would have taken some time to move down to where Bismarck was anchored--remembering that the two ships were anchored in different fjords. Had he stayed longer, he might have refueled Bismarck as well, but in the event Lutjens received a weather report that a storm front in the arctic made it advisable to sail at once so as to make use of its cover. As a result there was insufficient time for Bismarck to refuel; also, Bismarck had adequate fuel to meet most eventualities.

[Terje Langoy]

Thanks for an enlightening answer, Tommy...

Why would Lutjens be afraid to use his radio? Here he was, on the bridge of a warship that would seem enourmous in these fjords, and more important, a ship VERY easy to spot from more than just one window, if you know what I mean. It seems rather naive of Lutjens not to expect any norwegians informing the British of their whereabouts.

Very best regards

[RF]

Thanks for an enlightening answer, Tommy...

Why would Lutjens be afraid to use his radio? Here he was, on the bridge of a warship that would seem enourmous in these fjords, and more important, a ship VERY easy to spot from more than just one window, if you know what I mean. It seems rather naive of Lutjens not to expect any norwegians informing the British of their whereabouts.

Very best regards

Probably because the radio transmission would be picked up by British receivers immediately while there would be a time delay of some 24 to 48 hours in resitance reports reaching London via Sweden, ie the British could pinpoint his current location, rather than where he was a day or so ago.
Also heavy radio traffic indicates something is afoot.

[RF]

Lutjens intentions on refuelling was for Bismarck to refuel from the tanker Wiessenburg in the Arctic, then plunge straight down through DS.

Apparantly Lutjens abandoned that after leaving Bergen because the breakout conditions were good, so he went for the breakout and immediate Atlantic rendezvous with an Atlantic tanker. However Suffolk got in the way.

Hope that clarifies things, it is clear I think that Lutjens did know what he was doing with regards refuelling, at that point he was unaware of the effectiveness of British radar, and his plans were sound in the circumstances as he knew them at the time.

[Karl Heidenreich]

After being spot by Gotland, being in a resistance infested Norway, identified by the RAF reconoisance plane Lutjens must knew that any "surprise breakthrough" into the Atlantic was as feasible as to parade his ship in the Thames. Being the "fleet commander" his was the responsability of arrange any change needed, including a prolongued staying in Artic waters. To do so refuel was mandatory.

[Terje Langoy]

A German battleship accompanied by a heavy cruiser passing though the Kattegat would indicate something is afoot, wouldn't it? They didn't sail through here every day. Even if just a tranfer to Norway, it still acquired their attention. Just like the Tirpitz. He must have suspected, when seing the Gotland, that the British alarm would go off. Maybe they would even be looking for her? He must have considered that possiblity. So why stop in Bergen and make it easier to find her? If he planned his stop to go unnoticed to the British, he didn't pick a good place. Anchoring outside an occupied city crawling of German-hostile people it's not a very "undetectable" thing to do. An RDF-detection would be immediate but he stayed silent. Well, there are several ways to detect a ship, airplanes being one of them. Lutjens would know this. As time passed by, the British efforts to detect her would only grow bigger and bigger. An intelligence report would have been delayed. Yes, but not long enough for the Bismarck to reach DS. Back to point zero, right? The whole idea seems to collide with itself as he made efforts in staying undetected in an area where that's not the easiest thing to do.

Best regards

[tommy303]

Lutjens did in fact believe the sortie had been compromised by the encounter with the Gotland and he did not want to run the risk of being caught at sea on the run north towards the arctic by coastal command bombers in daylight. Had he thought otherwise he might have made straight for the Arctic without a stopover in Norway. I personally believe he stopped at Bergen under the impression that, when he voiced his concerns, his superiors would cancel the operation or postpone it until conditions changed and the British relaxed their guard. Group North, however, informed Lutjens that they could see no indications that the British were aware of his squadron's being at sea and in essense ordered the sortie to continue.

As to the stopover running a greater risk of detection, yes I agree. However it is curious that the actual Norwegian report was of Bismarck moving up the coast of Norway. The British were unaware of where she was after that until Pilot Officer Suckling photographed her at anchor from his high altitude Spitfire recon plane. Any reports by Norwegian resistance which might subsequently have reached the admiralty in London would merely comfirm what Suckling had already discovered. It is fortunate for the British that they acted on the supposition that Bismarck was going to try to break out immediately and took steps to strengthen patrols in the various passages. By the time reports came in that she and the cruiser had left Norway, Bismarck was already half way to the straits.

[Terje Langoy]

Well, if Lutjens really considered the operation to be postponed or cancelled, that would explain quite a lot, tommy. The decision to continue was, in that case, not of his making. As for the British, there's a fine line between being fortunate and being prepared. I don't think that they were fortunate as to act upon a suspicion of a breakout. I'd rather say they were being wise assuming that this were the case and therefore preparing for the worst no matter the outcome.

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao all,

I am carefully following this very interesting discussion .

My 2 cents to you all will be about the need to refuel by Bismarck.

How was Bismarck real autonomy in fuel compared with any Royal Navy battleship ?

What was the 'real weight' of Bismarck on that moment including all the extra-crew and addittional things loaded for the mission ( just look at her waterline compared to normal situation to evaluate ) ?

What was the speed loss impact of such a weight carryied on the ship if the ship was in desperate need to push it to the top speed ?

Under those assumptions and evaluation circumstances now we all should try to put ourselves into Adm Lutjens ''shoes'' and guess if without knowing what was going to happen into the Atlantic you are going to refuel to the maximun your already extra weigthed battleship .

Speed or autonomy ?

Make your guess...

.... but without knowing the future like we do today as we know he made the wrong choice, ..... after the events, ... but was it really such a silly mistake ?

Adm Lutjens was very careful about fuel, all the training done into the Baltic between Bismarck and Prinz Eugen do demonstrate that, very well.

More, during Op. Berlin with Gneisenau and Scharnhorst he was always keeping his 2 ships with the tanks fully loaded of oil, as a precaution, so he was really conscious about that need and all KM support oiler ship positions.

So, we cannot assume he did not evaluate what he was doing about Bismarck fuel situation, ... we need to try to imagine why he did that .

Did the difference between Bismarck and Prinz Eugen tanks and autonomy played a role too on his thougth process ..... ?

Ciao Antonio

[RF]

With respect to Antonio's post I think Bismarck had better autonomy than the British ships because unlike the British Lutjens could refuel at sea while the British had to go to port to refuel. At the same time Lutjens kept enough fuel in his ships to permit return to home if that was needed.

I don't necessarily feel that Lutjens miscalculated in any way in respect of his fuel position. People criticise because Bismarck was sunk and Prinz Eugen achieved nothing against merchant ships. Lutjens was not in any danger of running out of fuel, the fuel leak on Bismarck was battle damage and the final destruction of the ship was extraneous to its fuel position.

If Bismarck had made it to France I don't think people would be arguing over the level of the fuel tanks because of the victory it represented.

Tovey's fuel position was cut very fine, yet I see no criticism of him running very low on fuel in this thread, because he won.