bismark-after torpedo hit

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hans zurbriggen
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Re: bismark-after torpedo hit

Post by hans zurbriggen »

Hello,
what about running engine(s) astern ? Would this have allowed the ship to close France, due to wind effect that was orientating her bow always to North-West ? Unsure what speed could have been maintained and whether this would have made any difference.

hans
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Re: bismark-after torpedo hit

Post by wadinga »

Hello Hans,

In the many hours of exhaustive attempts made to steer with engines, I imagine sailing astern was tried, and rejected, although as mentioned several times in the past ships are innately difficult to steer going astern. It is normally only done when manoeuvring at slow speed in harbour. Props are designed to provide thrust clear of hull interaction, and preferably with their outflow passing over the rudder(s) to enhance the latter's effectiveness. That is why propellers and rudders are at the stern, not the bow. Higher speed through the water stabilises a ship's course because of the hydrodynamic flow. Slow speed, as in the case of the Ever Given means other factors, like windage or wave interaction can destabilize the ability to maintain course.

Whether one is going astern or ahead a jammed rudder creates an unstoppable turning motion. If your car's steering jammed at extreme lock it doesn't matter whether you drive forwards or backwards you still go round in a circle. Also like your car's single reverse gear, the propulsion systems of ships are often designed to produce only a fraction of the power going astern as ahead.

If there had not been a near-gale force wind blowing that day, Bismarck would just have inevitably gone round and round and round in circles, whether travelling astern or ahead, totally at the mercy of her remaining rudder.

However with the large windage effect it was possible to finely balance the irresistible turning effect to starboard with the varying pressure of wind and sea on hull and superstructure on the starboard bow. Like a slackrope walker wobbling along, constantly shifting their weight as the balance changes slightly, so Bismarck's helmsman could maintain the vaguely straight course the Baron describes. But there was only one heading in the 360 degrees available where this balance worked, going northwest.

Oh, but why isn't there a similar effect going astern, one might ask? Because travelling astern is inherently unpredictable, made worse by plunging the blunt stern into a seaway instead of the sharp prow, which is designed to maintain speed by cutting though waves. With unpredictable speed and hence turning effort and thus varying windage and wave effects the fine balance was unachievable.

Stopping engines and just letting Bismarck blow downwind towards France is an alternative, but once sympathetic rolling set in, as she would settle beam on to the sea, with her vast metacentric height, the motion would have been wickedly fast and extremely unpleasant. Very debilitating for the crew. Sailing northwest, slithering along the slackrope, maintained some semblance of order, minimising such motion.

I wonder whether Bill, as an engineer, has had any thoughts about how huge any drogue capable of keeping a 50,000 ton battleship's stern to the weather and also overcoming the irresistible turning effect of the jammed rudder would have to be? Scaling up from the perforated bucket suitable for a sailing yacht I imagine Bismarck would have to have craned the entire hangar overboard, let alone just the door! :shock:

All the best

wadinga
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ede144
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Re: bismark-after torpedo hit

Post by ede144 »

During Bismarcks testing in the Baltics with rudders locked at zero it was not possible to steer with engines. So they new it was an impossible task
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Re: bismark-after torpedo hit

Post by HMSVF »

ede144 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:46 pm During Bismarcks testing in the Baltics with rudders locked at zero it was not possible to steer with engines. So they new it was an impossible task

This is what I said earlier. The crew would have known there ship inside/out. If it could be done they would have done it. It wasn't for a lack of bravery or guile or knowledge. They were hundreds of miles from home with a ship that couldn't be fixed at sea.

A bloody awful situation to be in.
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hans zurbriggen
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Re: bismark-after torpedo hit

Post by hans zurbriggen »

Hello Mr.Wadinga,
reading the Baron, he says different combinations where attempted, but always trying to get the bow pointing to South-East, that resulted impossible. He never mention all engines being put astern together or even a combination of astern and stop.
Finally, all engines were put to slow ahead, and wind created the "fine balance" you mention. Putting the 3 engines slow astern would have created more or less the same fine balance, with Bismarck bow pointing to North-West due to prevailing wind and ship actually moving toward France, without much effect from the damaged rudder(s). Effect of rudder(s) in astern motion is even less.
At 7 knots astern, 70 sea miles would have been gained to France before battle, forcing Tovey toward Luftwaffe and U-boot. Possibly not enough, but better.

hans
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Re: bismark-after torpedo hit

Post by RF »

Consider this situation from another aspect.

Suppose the Bismarck was a US Navy battleship instead of German. What would a US naval crew have done in that situation, cut off from any outside help, the US Navy having a different culture, history and traditions to the KM?
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
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Re: bismark-after torpedo hit

Post by RF »

hans zurbriggen wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:18 am Hello Mr.Wadinga,
reading the Baron, he says different combinations where attempted, but always trying to get the bow pointing to South-East, that resulted impossible. He never mention all engines being put astern together or even a combination of astern and stop.
Finally, all engines were put to slow ahead, and wind created the "fine balance" you mention. Putting the 3 engines slow astern would have created more or less the same fine balance, with Bismarck bow pointing to North-West due to prevailing wind and ship actually moving toward France, without much effect from the damaged rudder(s). Effect of rudder(s) in astern motion is even less.
At 7 knots astern, 70 sea miles would have been gained to France before battle, forcing Tovey toward Luftwaffe and U-boot. Possibly not enough, but better.
hans
I think a factor here is the state of the crew generally and the engineers in particular - the fact that they are not mentally fresh, they are fatigued and suffering acute stress, are they able to properly think straight?

Also I see another post mentioned towing by Prinz Eugen. Now Bismarck and Prinz Eugen did do towing excercises in the Baltic ahead of Rheinunbung which were considered a success, so technically it could have been attempted, even allowing for a flat calm Baltic as opposed to a rough Atlantic. But it does risk a heavy cruiser as well as the battleship, air cover and U-boats would need to be in place as well.
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Re: bismark-after torpedo hit

Post by paul.mercer »

RF wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:26 am
hans zurbriggen wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:18 am Hello Mr.Wadinga,
reading the Baron, he says different combinations where attempted, but always trying to get the bow pointing to South-East, that resulted impossible. He never mention all engines being put astern together or even a combination of astern and stop.
Finally, all engines were put to slow ahead, and wind created the "fine balance" you mention. Putting the 3 engines slow astern would have created more or less the same fine balance, with Bismarck bow pointing to North-West due to prevailing wind and ship actually moving toward France, without much effect from the damaged rudder(s). Effect of rudder(s) in astern motion is even less.
At 7 knots astern, 70 sea miles would have been gained to France before battle, forcing Tovey toward Luftwaffe and U-boot. Possibly not enough, but better.
hans
I think a factor here is the state of the crew generally and the engineers in particular - the fact that they are not mentally fresh, they are fatigued and suffering acute stress, are they able to properly think straight?

Also I see another post mentioned towing by Prinz Eugen. Now Bismarck and Prinz Eugen did do towing excercises in the Baltic ahead of Rheinunbung which were considered a success, so technically it could have been attempted, even allowing for a flat calm Baltic as opposed to a rough Atlantic. But it does risk a heavy cruiser as well as the battleship, air cover and U-boats would need to be in place as well.
But surely, PE had already gone on her way, so wasn't available to tow, but as you say towing a 50,000 ton ship in flat calm conditions is one thing, doing so in an Atlantic gale is another and it is doubtful if the tow would remain intact, but even if she had been there all that would have happened is that Germany would have lost two ships instead of one.
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Re: bismark-after torpedo hit

Post by ede144 »

RF wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:18 am Consider this situation from another aspect.

Suppose the Bismarck was a US Navy battleship instead of German. What would a US naval crew have done in that situation, cut off from any outside help, the US Navy having a different culture, history and traditions to the KM?
There is USS Intrepid, which faced the same damage and could saved only by towing. Otherwise it would have ended in Japan
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Re: bismark-after torpedo hit

Post by wadinga »

Hello Hans and all,

Firstly I think you should credit the seaman branch of Germany's most prestigious warship with a little more guts and determination and consider that they may have tried all combinations in the many hours available, including some not specifically recorded by a gunnery officer. Whilst he and a huge proportion of the crew were effectively mere passengers with nothing better to do than to sit around and gloomily contemplate impending doom, bridge crew and engineers would have surely worked flat out trying all options. The other thing passengers might do is come up with daft and unworkable ideas like welding the hangar door to the side of the ship. Seamen and engineers concluded that the only stable course achievable was northwest.

As far as damage control ability is concerned, the recovery of Prinz Eugen and Lutzow after severe hull damage disabling steering in both cases shows the Kriegsmarine had little to learn from the USN in the matter. The USN had some major successes but I believe there are no direct parallels to Bismarck's lonely situation. As Ede144 has pointed out, in most cases, USN disabled vessels received succour and towing from other vessels. A detailed contemporary official report of USS Intrepid's voyage with a damaged rudder is available at

http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/ ... ring.html#

Using a forward deck park of bulky aircraft, and a sail and a helpful headwind the ship managed to achieve something approaching their desired course, but the report notes the tendency of the ship to "weathercock" into the wind. Luckily, crucially, their destinations were upwind. The description of Intrepid's helplessness when the rudder had been removed completely and trials were made attempting to steer with her four shaft installation for a return to the States is illuminating. It would appear that at no time did the Intrepid crew have to cope with the bad weather Bismarck was encountering.

Imagining Bismarck going astern, true, her twisted rudder loses propeller thrust influence but gains effect because it encounters undisturbed water first ie is not shadowed by the hull. It creates a strong turning effect to port, when looking aft. As has been described speed control is all the ship has to try and control heading, and going astern gives very poor speed control (see above). Especially vaguely downwind. Now finding some heading where wind effect might conceivably be balanced against this astern turn to port means probably southerly, beam-on to the sea. No fine balance would be possible. Going slow ahead exploits Bismarck's hull shape to achieve consistent speed, which gives a chance of balancing windage.

People thinking about picking up the tow of Bismarck in wild weather instead of the the flat calm of a Baltic exercise should watch You Tube: Work on Supply Boat During Heavy Weather and imagine much worse conditions. Two battleships en route to the breakers, Sao Paulo and Warspite broke their already-established tows by specialist vessels with specialist equipment and expert crews in heavy weather.

Bad weather at sea changes what is possible. No amount of "positive thinking" can overcome the inevitable. Imaginative "solutions" which ignore reality, are just wishful thinking.

All the best

wadinga
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Re: bismark-after torpedo hit

Post by Steve Crandell »

There was probably some consideration given to the possibility that shooting back effectively gave a chance of at least doing some damage to her enemy before being destroyed, and the course ultimately settled on probably gave the best chance for accurate gunnery, as difficult as that was in any event without a stable course.

These people were under a huge amount of stress and I think they did the best they could under the circumstances.
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hans zurbriggen
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Re: bismark-after torpedo hit

Post by hans zurbriggen »

Hello Mr.Wadinga and all,
Yes, we have to rely on a gunnery officer account. This officer never mentioned any attempt to run astern the ship (something that would have been remarkable even for a mere passenger). Junack (engineer) never accounted for such attempt.
You say "Seamen and engineers concluded that the only stable course achievable was northwest.": this is not exact. The Baron just says that the conclusion was that the bow could not be oriented in any different direction than North-West.
Re. opinions, I remember I have read (I can't remember where) the article of a merchant sea Captain (an expert conducting large ships) presenting his view that running astern the engines at low speed, an erratic course South-East was actually achievable, despite the damaged rudder(s). This makes sense to me, as it was the gale wind to force the bow to NW. If anyone has this article it may be interesting in this discussion.
An even erratic course to SE (70 sea miles more) would have put Tovey in extremely uncomfortable situation.

hans
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wadinga
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Re: bismark-after torpedo hit

Post by wadinga »

Hello Hans and All,

Ten years ago there was a thread started about this "sailing in reverse" to France concept. http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... =reversing
Our splendid website host Mr Rico kindly posted the following which was from the Baron's book:
"Retired Kapitän zur See Alfred Schulze-Hinrichs appears to me to have the most plausible ex post facto theories on what the Bismarck might have done. * This recognized expert in the field of seamanship wonders whether the Bismarck should not have tried, by contrarotating her three propellers, to reach St. Nazaire by backing.

This is not the place for a detailed examination of Schulze Hinrichs very interesting technical arguments. In retrospect, I think the explanation for not trying a maneuver such as he suggest must lie in the circumstances that existed that night, the presence of the enemy and the weather, as well as in our general experience of the Bismarck's steering characteristics.

Given the pressure being put upon us by the enemy, it is readily understandable that the ship's command did not try such a maneuver, which would have required continuous, concentrated attention- and that for hours, over hundreds of nautical miles, on a pitch-black night with no horizon and not a single star by which to navigate. Finally, as we have seen, her earliest trials in the Baltic showed that the ship was extremely difficult to steer with her propellers alone. In backing she had a strong tendency, as do most ships, to turn her stern into the wind. In the Atlantic on 26 May this would have, in effect, put us on the same unwanted course to the northwest to which we were condemned in going ahead. Experience gained in her trials may have caused the ship's command to reject from the start the idea of attempting to reach St. Nazaire by backing through the Atlantic swells.+ It is, however, possible that had such a maneuver been practiced more frequently and practiced in bad weather, it might have been tried.

In view of the Bismarck's actual situation that night, Schulze-Hinrichs's otherwise interesting line of thought is too theoretical."

* Alfred Schulze-Hinrichs, "Schlachtschiff Bismarck und Seemannschaft," pp. 6-7.
+ In addition to the preceding reservations, it is doubtful if it would have been technically possible to back the ship all the way to the coast of France. The reverse turbines could only have exerted their –already greatly diminished- horsepower for brief periods, as the cooling system would not have sufficed for prolonged operation. The openings for the cool water intake were designed for forward motion. Because of this, the backing would have had to be periodically interrupted, and each time the ship would have swung off course, which would have been very difficult to regain, so from this viewpoint as well such a maneuver would have been an act of despair.
He has also put the article itself in this site's splendid archive for German speakers to enjoy.

http://www.kbismarck.com/bismarck-seemannschaft.html

So even a gunnery officer recognised this idea was "too theoretical".
You say "Seamen and engineers concluded that the only stable course achievable was northwest.": this is not exact.


The evidence is from Bismarck's chart table. The course they steered had no tactical advantage and considerable disadvantage. Therefore the only reason for steering it was because it was the only one possible. Which is confirmed by the Baron.

Aside from all the "New Age" self improvement book/Sports psychology guff about "anything is possible if you want it enough", why is it so difficult to accept that the men who knew the ship, and were actually experiencing the weather conditions and whose responsibility was to try everything possible/feasible are more likely to be correct than armchair experts/speculators?

As for the crews' exhaustion and mental state being a problem, exhausted by what? Bismarck was just a few days out of harbour after a lengthy and non-particularly demanding work-up period. It was her Officers' responsibility to ensure adequate rest for themselves and their men. There was no need for everybody to be at action stations all the time."Exhausted" describes the men of the U-boat arm in their cramped, dirty boats in the wild Atlantic with no fresh food for month-long and longer sorties at a time, replenished at sea by Milch Cows to extend the duration of their suffering. "Exhausted" are the crews of RN escorts and Merchant ship crews of the Atlantic convoys, spending punishing weeks at sea and then being turned around in a matter of hours, before being sent out again. Bismarck's crew was sunbathing on deck in Grimstadtfjord! A Norwegian cruising holiday.

All the best

wadinga
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hans zurbriggen
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Re: bismark-after torpedo hit

Post by hans zurbriggen »

Hello Mr.Wadinga,thank you very much.
I was sure I had seen the article but could not find it. Also, I missed that the Baron mentioned it, confirming that the astern option was never tried that night ( but that it "might have been tried if practiced" before).
Reading again this interesting article, from an expert in seamanship, I still feel it proposes the "more plausible theory" re. how to steer Bismarck with the damaged rudder(s), supported by previous tests and hydrodynamical considerations, but still without any certainty about final result in actual situation. Summarising, the theory proposes to steer ship running astern the outer shafts (and, possibly at times, very slowly ahead the center shaft to counter the rudder(s) remaining small effect) + dropping an anchor with 25 meters chain at the bow.
Kpt zS Alfred Schulze-Hinrichs mentions also the possible problem of running astern for long time but he says that Bismarck propulsion plant could sustain 9 knots running turbines astern.
Again, 70-90 sea miles more toward France, would have made quite a difference re. Tovey decision to continue hunting or to give up.

Re. Baron's objections, I find the "excuse" that it "would have required continuous, concentrated attention...over hundreds of nautical miles...with no horizon and not a single star by which to navigate" a bit risible: full attention was required anyway to counter any possible attack, 150 miles were surely enough to get to German controlled waters/airs and (gyro)compass would have provided orientation: no one says Bismarck should have entered St.Nazaire dock by herself running astern, just reaching safety and tugs. It supports the idea that Bismarck crew (or at least the Baron himself) was exhausted after the British hunt.

hans
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Re: bismark-after torpedo hit

Post by paul.mercer »

Gentlemen,
Your theories on running astern for hundreds of miles are interesting, but would not change her ultimate end.
As I suggested in an earlier post the RN had a number of aircraft and capital ships- including a carrier looking for her once she had been found there was no way they were going to let her get back to safety. Lutyens message to the crew re 'fighting to the last shell' proves that he knew the RN was closing in on them and would never let her get away.
What does puzzle me is that Rodney was apparently loaded with spares and on her way to the USA for refit, which would suggest that she had enough fuel for the Atlantic crossing, so why did she run short - even though she was originally sent in the wrong direction during the hunt?
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