Page 10 of 35

Re: PoW's gunnery VS BSM's gunnery

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:44 pm
by Alberto Virtuani
Hello everybody,

Bismarck is course 270° at the start of the PG film, firing with the turrets trained much aft of her beam, as already proven by Antonio and myself (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8329&hilit=hard+nut ... 165#p81010 , viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8329&p=81060&hilit= ... ack#p81060).

This is not the right thread anyway to discuss further. We possibly agree by now that Germans never stopped firing during turns.


Bye, Alberto

Re: PoW's gunnery VS BSM's gunnery

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:04 pm
by Herr Nilsson
Alberto Virtuani wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:44 pm
Hello everybody,

Bismarck is course 270° at the start of the PG film, firing with the turrets trained much aft of her beam, as already proven by Antonio and myself (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8329&hilit=hard+nut ... 165#p81010 , viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8329&p=81060&hilit= ... ack#p81060).

This is not the right thread anyway to discuss further. We possibly agree by now that Germans never stopped firing during turns.


Bye, Alberto
@all

I tend to agree that Jasper says that Prinz Eugen was shooting during her turns. That doesn't say this applies to both German ships.
It may be right that this isn't the right thread to discuss whether Bismarck has turned or not, but if Bismarck hadn't turned at all there may be other reasons why she didn't fire constantly.

Re: PoW's gunnery VS BSM's gunnery

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:28 pm
by Alberto Virtuani
Hello everybody,

once agreed that PG did not stop firing, and as the PG film (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPmkOtSveXY) shows Bismarck firing while turning to port, due to her silhouette change from minute 6:51 to 7:12 (no PG turn can account for such an evident change in Bismarck silhouette in 20 seconds only), I think there are not many evidences pointing to any interruption in Bismarck fire action...

Therefore, except imagining other reasons (not accounted by anybody...) for BS fire interruptions, I still see the validity of the "annoying table" (download/file.php?id=3413) for comparing average RoF values among the three ships.


Bye, Alberto

Re: PoW's gunnery VS BSM's gunnery

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:32 pm
by wadinga
Fellow contributors,
Deeply sorry, Jasper statement is unambiguous, PG firing continued during the turns.
It sounds unambiguous until it is contradicted by the very next sentence which I would have expected to be redacted, so as to pretend his statement is really unambiguous.

One must wonder whether a former Italian Navy gunnery dept officer honestly thinks they kept shooting- just not at the target presumably, because Jasper says the guns weren't pointing at it? What would be the point? Keeping up the "rate of fire" even though the guns aren't actually pointing at the target?

We must be thankful for no posting of the discredited and inaccurate table, I don't suppose anybody will bother to follow the URL.

I would have thought those wishing to present Bismarck as having a slow rate of fire would have avoiding referring to the film which shows a much higher rate of fire, whatever the speculations about frame rates.

Herr Nilsson- if you don't agree with the current translation, can you provide an alternate for the second sentence? If the guns aren't pointed at the target why fire them? Clearly Jasper is making the point, even in this short summary, that PG's pointless high-speed gyrations dodging imaginary torpedoes were damaging for his shooting. Remember the observation from Busch.
They know that to outmaneuver these torpedoes without too much interference on the firing of the artillery, was a masterpiece of seamanship.


without too much means there is some, and hence a disruption to firing. This is confirmed in his English language book The Story of the Prince Eugen where smoke from the forward guns and the stack obscured the target during the sharp turn which caused the ship to list steeply to port:
Nothing more was to be seen through the lenses of the optical instruments.
All the best

wadinga

Re: PoW's gunnery VS BSM's gunnery

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:20 pm
by Alberto Virtuani
Hello everybody,
Wadinga wrote (my bold): "...which I would have expected to be redacted, so as to pretend his statement is really unambiguous. One must wonder whether a former Italian Navy gunnery dept officer honestly thinks they kept shooting.... I don't suppose anybody will bother to follow the URL..."
may the moderator ask to the forum members to avoid this kind of low insinuations / as well as the implicit mocking (e.g. the used "courtesy title") when enraged for being out of any argument to counter what bare figures tell us?

Btw, firing the guns is a good way to re-acquire the target, but this is only the poor advise of a former "Italian Navy gunnery dept officer" to a "mere British civilian" (a fact I would have avoided to underline once again, in view of the new climate we are trying to establish here).



Despite the umpteenth attempt of "interpretation" (exactly the opposite of what Busch wanted to tell us...confirming what Jasper says about the limited consequences of the turns that Schmalenbach and the Baron avoided even to mention, so great was their effect on gunnery), the only true "disruption" to firing on May 24 was the emergency 160° turn at full speed + hard rudder under smoke screen ordered by Captain Leach at around 06:01:00, that made McMullen "furious" and prevented any further hit on Bismarck.


Bye, Alberto

Re: PoW's gunnery VS BSM's gunnery

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:43 pm
by Byron Angel
Someone should be able to provide a quick answer to this question -

Did Bismarck possess remote power control of her main battery turrets in train ?

> If so, then she arguably might have been able to continue main battery fire under continuous helm.
> If not, then her ability to fire while turning would have likely been restricted to minor course alterations which could have been accomplished within the re-load/fire cycle.

B

Re: PoW's gunnery VS BSM's gunnery

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:45 pm
by Bill Jurens
Mr. Virtuani has a point. I take it Wadinga's argument, insinuations (if intended) removed, is that some material in the quote has been either taken out of context and/or that additional and relevant material has been omitted.

In that regard, might it be helpful for someone to post more of the statement(s) in contention, first in their original German, then perhaps in translation, preferably made by a native German speaker?

I must admit, however, that I remain uncertain as to the practical historical relevance of what might appear at best to represent some relatively minor interruption in the delivery of Prinz Eugen's gunfire. Might someone explain of what significant practical difference the truth value of 'x' or 'y' in this case might make to an overall reconstruction of the battle?

Bill Jurens

Re: PoW's gunnery VS BSM's gunnery

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:04 am
by Bill Jurens
My sense of it is that Bismarck would have been equipped with remote power in train. Insofar as we have, at least so far as I know, no surviving records of her ability to shoot and hit while in the midst of a turn, her effectiveness in attempting such an operation is questionable -- having the capability to do something in theory does not necessarily correspond to one's ability to exercise that capability in practice, or perhaps more relevant in this case, perhaps without any practice at all.

That being said, I am not sure why Bismarck would have been attempting to make anything than relatively minor changes in course anyhow. It would seem unlikely that, aside from possible attempting to dodge incoming gunfire, and barring some truly catastrophic circumstance, she would find any advantage in changing course at all.

My suspicion would be that the tactical rules would be for Bismarck to take whatever course she chose as most effective, with Prinz Eugen's role being mostly to keep from getting underfoot.

But I could be wrong...

Bill Jurens.

Re: PoW's gunnery VS BSM's gunnery

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:08 am
by Thorsten Wahl
My sense of it is that Bismarck would have been equipped with remote power in train.
The main firing procedure uses Höhenfernsteuerung mit Seitenvorzündwerk "remote control for train with Seitenvorzündwerk"
"Seitenvorzündwerk" is a uniqe german feature, not used by any one other nation in this time. (Modern MBT use the same procedure for stabilising the guns.)

That means the firing solution is continously calculated by the firecontrol computer. Even if the ship turns rolls or pitch the complete firing solution is permanently corrected automatically. Aside from the remote power controled train, the angle for azimuth is also set by the firing solution(green line).

-before the shooting the turret is in waiting position (red line)

-during firing the complete turret is turned through the firing solution and fires automatically, when it reaches the "Vorzündwinkel"
(angle between yellow and green line)

Image
Insofar as we have, at least so far as I know, no surviving records of her ability to shoot and hit while in the midst of a turn, her effectiveness in attempting such an operation is questionable -- having the capability to do something in theory does not necessarily correspond to one's ability to exercise that capability in practice, or perhaps more relevant in this case, perhaps without any practice at all.
According to Paul Schmalenbach Prinz Eugen held firing exercises later in war with complete 360 degrees turns and the shell impacts succesfully stood on target. As the firing control equipment was the same, Bismarck could do the same, but the key is. Was it practised?

I have some doubts as Mulheim Rechberg doesnt mentioned this "unusual" type of firing in it's memories, also his account appears in certain details in the best case as "indistinct". Especially when he speaks about fire control and firing procedures. In some details he should know it better. In some details, he completely depends on foreign secondary information, wich is completely enigmatic and incomprehensible for me. Except some "loss" is caused by, when he became a POW -he has to "forgot" all details of confidential facts.

Re: PoW's gunnery VS BSM's gunnery

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:27 am
by Alberto Virtuani
Hi Thorsten,

thanks as usual for this details.

Is the difference between the yellow and the green line the result of the fact that the "Seitenvorzündwerk" fires the guns of a turret (and/or the two turrets) at a slightly different time ?
In case it is not this way, why this "difference" ?


Bye, Alberto

Re: PoW's gunnery VS BSM's gunnery

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:42 am
by Thorsten Wahl
Between the closing of the firing circuit and the Moment when the shells leaving the barrel, ther is some delay, so it requires some correction. And this correction is the Vorzündwinkel, wich describes all variables involved in the complete process (for instance ship movements, delay of the electric and mechanic systems, inner ballistics of powder, turning movement of the turret).

The "Vorzündwinkel" can be set individually for every gun, it can be used for artifically increased side spread / reducing the size of the impact pattern(delay coil function).

BTW, obtaining a "good firing solution" is by no means a trivial process, as one could derive from the superfical explanations of naval historicans in all Hood and Bismarck TV documentations. In my eyes, they have absolutely no clue about naval gunfire and ... control. The highlight is the "plunging shot", wich caused the loss of Hood falling almost vertically from the sky.

Image

Re: PoW's gunnery VS BSM's gunnery

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:49 am
by Alberto Virtuani
So many thanks, Thorsten !

Ciao
Alberto

Re: PoW's gunnery VS BSM's gunnery

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:24 am
by Thorsten Wahl
have done some Edits to my posts

Re: PoW's gunnery VS BSM's gunnery

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:37 am
by Herr Nilsson
wadinga wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:32 pm
Herr Nilsson- if you don't agree with the current translation, can you provide an alternate for the second sentence?
During the battle the own ship turned sharply three times.
Firing continued during the turn. (but all turns are meant)
Due to that (literally "in connection with that" and "that" means turning and firing) the battery was temporarily displaced laterally from the target two times.
At the third avoidance maneuver the line of fire came directly in front of Bismarck.

Re: PoW's gunnery VS BSM's gunnery

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:08 am
by Thorsten Wahl
We can derive from data, that if target and /or own ship changes course, speed and so on, an automated firing solution seem to lag somewhat.
It requires additonal observing of target movements and additional manual corrections to overcome the potential error by lagging.

Experience(how the whole system reacts (including the men involved)) and training may reduce the error.

additional Information
Richter as the second AO was one of the key developers of the modern firecontrol on german capital ships according to Schmalenbach.