Bismarck at DS after the second turn

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Bismarck at DS after the second turn

Post by Herr Nilsson » Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:39 pm

Just for the record, Prinz Eugen made revolutions for 27 knots to match Bismarck‘s 28 knots.
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Marc

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Bismarck at DS after the second turn

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:36 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nillson,

interesting speed evaluation difference between BS and PG we can keep on the records. Many thanks.

@ all,

Anyhow, just confirming the above, here following the official Prinz Eugen speed from own documentation :
Prinz_Eugen_speed_from_KTB_24_May_1941.jpg
Prinz_Eugen_speed_from_KTB_24_May_1941.jpg (47.76 KiB) Viewed 864 times
Here the same value, the 27 knots, in graphic format on the May 24th log :
PG_speed_27_knots.jpg
PG_speed_27_knots.jpg (100.67 KiB) Viewed 864 times
Consequently we can easily realize this track that is just a perfect match at 27 knots for 23 minutes for 2 of the 4 milestone proposed :
Starting_milestones_1cm_1000_meters_Prinz_Eugen.jpg
(103.45 KiB) Not downloaded yet

The same goes for the PoW for the other 2 milestones, where David Mearns study to find Hood wreck has been of a great help and value to me.

I see no room for any disagreement, ... but since we decided to work here in as a team on a positive and constructive attitude, ... I like to read the agreements now, ... of course after a very careful evaluation of the maps.

Do not be shy, ... it is just a very easy geometrical figure, ... requiring just an elementary evaluation.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Bismarck at DS after the second turn

Post by Herr Nilsson » Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:02 pm

Bismarck and Prinz Eugen had the same speed. Bismarck made revolutions for 28 knots and Prinz Eugen for 27 knots. The question is whose calibration was right. In any case Bismarck at 30 knots would be just 2 knots faster than Prinz Eugen... not 3...and it‘s very, very questionable that Bismarck accelerated at all.
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Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)

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Re: Bismarck at DS after the second turn

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:23 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nillson,

the question is easy to be resolved.

If we trust the bearings, .... from PoW to Prinz Eugen at 05:37, ... which was 334° T , ... and from Prinz Eugen to PoW at 06:00, ... that was 143° T, ... as I have showed you on the map above, ... after 23 minutes we have the perfect match at 27 knots precisely, ... which was the Prinz Eugen recorded speed on her official documents.

It matches also with the BC1 course and bearings with PoW at 28 knots, ... just as declared, ... and this is very important indeed.

The connecting distance of 15.000 meters at 06:00 between them does provide a very reliable scale for the overall scenario, because Jasper was scoring hits on PoW on that moment.

If anybody does have something more precise and reliable of this set of data and milestones, ... I am really curious to evaluate them.

In the other hand, ... not having anything better to be used as milestone to define the base battle frame , ... I think we can only agree on what we have and the confirmation that we can find on the official documents I have provided.

Opinions are welcome ....

Note : I will take your points about the Bismarck speed evaluation and relative position after we have done this job and agree about the base frame we are defining, .... not to put too much meat on the fireplace on this moment. One step after the other and all hopefully agreed.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Bismarck at DS after the second turn

Post by Herr Nilsson » Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:11 am

Hello Antonio,

I have some difficulties with that simple explanation. I think we agree that 27 knots in 23 minutes are 10.35 sm, while 28 knots are 10,73 sm in the same time. I took the liberty to adjust the bearings and Prinz Eugen's track. Then I've shifted the track parallel to your original track (green) into a postion which fits for 28 (blue) and 27 knots (red). IMHO 28 knots makes sense, too.
Milestone Measurements.jpg
(126.5 KiB) Not downloaded yet
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)

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Re: Bismarck at DS after the second turn

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:38 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nillson,

I see your examples and I am glad you start producing evaluations and a comparisons, ... because in my opinion it is the only way to fully understand what we are doing and what happened, ... to deeply work on the data and the map.

I am glad you worked on the more accurate version improving the overall precision of the map and drawing both alternatives at 27 and 28 knots.

I see you respected the 143°T at 06:00 and the 334°T at 05:37.

I am happy that my raw example falls just in the middle of them.

Now in my opinion the parameter that will help us determining what is the best solution ( compromise ) to be adopted in this phase is the distance at 06:00 between the Prinz Eugen and the Prince of Wales.

I have used and suggested an early 15.000 meters as you know.
This because we have Jasper stating 16-17.000 meters at 05:59 and around 14.000 meters at 06:02-03.

But we have to keep in account also McMullen and Rowell with the Bismarck distance at 06:00 from the PoW.
This because Bismarck cannot be in the Prinz Eugen port side as Otto Schlenzka confirmed to me in Kiel ( on top of the various other inputs about it we have ), she was on the starboard back side of Prinz Eugen, so more distant from PoW than the Prinz Eugen at 06:00.
In this regard we have McMullen with 16.450 yards and 16.300 yards with salvoes 13 and 14 on his gunnery plot.
Rowell on his map first used the 16.450 yards, and after corrected it with the 16.300 yards value.

Anyway, 16.450 yards = to 15.041 meters and 16.300 yards = to 14.904 meters

This said I think it is wise at this point to choose a compromise PG speed and distance at 06:00 PG to PoW that will satisfy those parameters.
At first look it seems to me that it is going to be more close to the 27 knots line you have traced rather than to the 28 knots blue line your drew on top of my one.

Something like PG at 14.900 meters and Bismarck at 15.100 from PoW should be fairly close.

Opinions welcome, ...

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Bismarck at DS after the second turn

Post by Byron Angel » Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:18 pm

Herr Nilsson wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:11 am
Hello Antonio,

I have some difficulties with that simple explanation. I think we agree that 27 knots in 23 minutes are 10.35 sm, while 28 knots are 10,73 sm in the same time. I took the liberty to adjust the bearings and Prinz Eugen's track. Then I've shifted the track parallel to your original track (green) into a postion which fits for 28 (blue) and 27 knots (red). IMHO 28 knots makes sense, too.

Milestone Measurements.jpg

A thought - It is perhaps the case that the 27kt versus 28kt speed differential was merely a consequence of the Bismarck and Prinz Eugen closing up the interval between them after having sighted the British.

B

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Re: Bismarck at DS after the second turn

Post by Herr Nilsson » Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:30 pm

Antonio,

that are assumptions I can’t easily agree without any deeper analysis. As I‘ve demonstrated slight variations in bearings and speed have an immense impact. If wadinga is right the result will again be totally different.
PoW‘s track has to be adjusted as well, because some bearings are very slightly differing...not to mention that PoW‘s track possibly has to be reworked anyway.

Byron,

I don’t think so. In his war diary Brinkmann says that the speed calibration of both ships was not equal. Prinz Eugen had to made revolutions for one knot less than Bismarck to sail at the same speed. That means that while on Bismarck 28 knots were ordered, Brinkmann had to order just 27 knots to keep the right distance.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)

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Re: Bismarck at DS after the second turn

Post by Byron Angel » Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:46 am

Herr Nilsson wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:30 pm

Byron,

I don’t think so. In his war diary Brinkmann says that the speed calibration of both ships was not equal. Prinz Eugen had to made revolutions for one knot less than Bismarck to sail at the same speed. That means that while on Bismarck 28 knots were ordered, Brinkmann had to order just 27 knots to keep the right distance.

Versteht.

B

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Re: Bismarck at DS after the second turn

Post by wadinga » Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:15 am

Hello All,

Yes, ships are not cars. Or simple mathematically-predictable geometry measuring tools (hodometer). On a car you can rotate wheels of known diameters at particular RPM to achieve particular speeds and measure distances. This is not true for ships. The hydrodynamic characteristics of the hulls will mean the revolutions which gave a certain speed over the measured mile in the Baltic at a particular load and trim, will not give an identical speed over the ground plunging into Atlantic swells. Nor will a 47,000 ton battleship be similarly effected by such conditions as a 17,000 ton cruiser.

We have described "guide of the Fleet" before. The Senior vessel will specify the nominal speed but the junior vessel's responsibility is to keep station whatever revolutions they are running. Thus revolutions for 28 knots in one ship may be equivalent to an entirely different value in another. Hence the "Art of Navigation".

We are not dealing with a surveying traverse because Antonio does not know the link length of his surveying chain on the German track, and it is different to that used by the British. This limits the precision achievable. By quite a bit. Trying to contradict witnesses by claiming to calculate the exact distance run to prove them wrong is not scientifically supportable.

Even my apparently execrable mathematical ability suggests that at the angle PG and Bismarck appeared from PoW's first sighting, the leading ship was only a single kilometre closer, even assuming she was 3,000m ahead, so less if less. The suggestion that this ship was seen before the much bigger, taller battleship is patently incorrect, the British Gunnery Officer witnesses both say Bismarck was obviously much bigger, and Geoffrey Brooke definitely describes Bismarck appearing first over the horizon. The bearing 334T at 05:37 clearly applies to PoW to Bismarck. The OS1 postulation needs to be adjusted for this.

All the best

wadinga
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Re: Bismarck at DS after the second turn

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:07 am

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nillson,

you have just demonstrated that my evaluation was correct inside your two traced lines, and it is well inside the given tolerances.

Once you keep in account the 15.000 meters distance between PG and PoW at 06:00, ... parameter that you did not take in account, ... those tolerances are going to be reduced and you are back very, very close to my scenario, ... only a bit below my traced line due to a more precision on tracing the lines, ... because I had to respect my printed 2005 map with his limits, ... and that is it.

The Prinz Eugen speed was just a bit more than 27 knots, surely not 28 knots, and in fact on the original documents Brinkmann always wrote 27 knots.

No, Wadinga cannot be right and the ship identified at 05:37 can only be the Prinz Eugen for the above reasons of reduced tolerances and distances between the 2 German warships.
Bismarck at 27 or 28 knots no matter what, being at 330° T at 06:00 cannot be in any case at bearing 334°T at 05:37, while keeping the PoW at 28 knots as reference base.
The PoW gunnery plot data ( bearings ) will soon show us where Bismarck was in comparison to the Prinz Eugen track during that run, ... and will show where Bismarck really was at 05:37 consequently, ... confirming that she was not the warship identified by PoW on bearing 334°T at 05:37, ... as simple as that.

In this regard, ... obviously the future evaluations we can add to those 4 points agreed base milestone and tracks will demonstrate easily what I am stating.

If this will not happen, ... we can go back and redo the all work, ... I have no problems about it, ... if that will be the case.

@ Wadinga,

we are dialing with a naval battle map and we are going to re-construct it with a good enough set of tolerances simply because it is possible to do it, ... because I already did it with sufficient precision for the main 4 warships on 2005, ... and we are going to add to them the 2 British Heavy cruisers tracks with a more precise tracks positioning too.

The witness accounts, when not supported by the available data will have to be judged very carefully in this regard.

@ all,

should I consider that now everybody agrees about those 4 points milestone based on the PG to PoW merging parameters ( 143°T and 15.000 meters at 06:00 ) as it seems to me ?

Do we have a common agreed base map to start working with now ? ( We will take Herr Nillson more precise version respecting the 15.000 meters at 06:00 between PG and PoW )

Next obvious step will be to define the Bismarck positioning in parallel back to Prinz Eugen based on the PoW bearings from the gunnery plot, ... from bearing 330° T at 06:00 backwards until 05:37, ... while controlling and modify as needed the BC1 tracks and the 3 executed turns.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Bismarck at DS after the second turn

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:07 am

Hello everybody,
Wadinga wrote: "Even my apparently execrable mathematical ability suggests that at the angle PG and Bismarck appeared from PoW's first sighting, the leading ship was only a single kilometre closer, even assuming she was 3,000m ahead, so less if less. The suggestion that this ship was seen before the much bigger, taller battleship is patently incorrect"
Even 1 km (and BS could have been much more distant at 05:37, depending on her speed vs PG...) is enough to prevent the sighting of a bigger ship when visibility is 19 sm if the smaller one is at exactly 19 sm and the bigger is at 19,5 sm or more distant, as already patiently explained (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8335&start=255#p81602).

Therefore it is only logical to assume that the 334° of a single visible ship is referred to PG from PoW, as everybody has done above, discussing the starting OS1: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8335&start=225#p81563 and download/file.php?id=3345 .


"Ad abundantiam", due to geometry and speed, the bearing from PoW to BS should (slightly) reduce from 05:38 on (arcs slightly closing when PoW is on 280° as per PoW salvo plot), getting to 335° at 5:53 (open fire). Therefore, mathematically, it simply could not be 334° at 05:37 nor 335° at 05:44, it was surely something like 338°-340° at that time (again depending on BS distance from PG).



Bye, Alberto
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"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: Bismarck at DS after the second turn

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:53 am

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nillson,

here in graphic format what we are talking about.

I have drew in BLUE the new Prinz Eugen track at 14.900 meters from PoW at 06:00, and just as I wrote above it falls between my previous traced line and your bottom RED line at 27 knots.

In order to show everybody that even if Bismarck was sailing at the same Prinz Eugen speed ( doubtful ), ... she cannot be the ship on bearing 334° T at 05:37, ... I have traced in VIOLET above the new BLUE Prinz Eugen track, an example of Bismarck track ( very close to what will be at the end ) to show that at 05:37 assuming same speed of PG, she would have been at 336,8° T at least, ... but probably as Alberto calculated, ... more than that back compared to Prinz Eugen position at 05:37.

To easily double check what I am stating, it is enough to do a quick and dirty bearing line at 05:53 ( PoW open fire to BS ) with bearing 335° T, ... and you can see immediately where Bismarck was in between that run, ... making impossible to be already at 334° T at 05:37.
Milestone Measurements_Marc_04.jpg
(120.4 KiB) Not downloaded yet
@ all,

can we all agree that the 4 milestones between Prinz Eugen and PoW at 06:00 and 05:37 are correct now ?

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Bismarck at DS after the second turn

Post by wadinga » Sat Dec 22, 2018 2:01 pm

Hello Antonio,

This piece of geometrical speculation assumes the 7 degree separation between PG and Bismarck at 06:00 is firstly real, and would also apply much earlier, when it might have been even larger, as speculated by Alberto in order to get his "PG was 2 kilometres closer, and therefore appeared first".

This 7 degree value assumes the single 06:00 bearing from PG to PoW measured from the "useless and worthless" Gefechtsskizze is as valid as the bearings recorded from the PoW salvo plot. It is indeed the same as that shown for the same time on Reimann's sketch, but the latter shows an extremely different bearing for Hood only one minute previously. We know the British ships were only a few hundred metres apart. Why are Reimann's figures so different? This sketch was submitted by Reimann in defence of his actions after Brinkmann "threw him in front of the bus" in the KTB. He mush have been sure of the information, since his career depended on it.


We really need that full Jasper gunnery report to validate the Gefechtsskizze, I wonder when (whether) it will appear.

The idea that there was some kind of opaque curtain at 19 miles and 100 yards, hiding the 45,000 ton behemoth a few hundred yards further away is really too far fetched for words. Both Brooke and Rowell describe "exceptional visibility". Brooke describes in detail Bismarck appearing first.


All the best

wadinga
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Bismarck at DS after the second turn

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:44 pm

Hello everybody,
Wadinga wrote: "The idea that there was some kind of opaque curtain at 19 miles and 100 yards, hiding the 45,000 ton behemoth a few hundred yards further away is really too far fetched for words. Both Brooke and Rowell describe "exceptional visibility".
I thought we had been asked not to use mocking anymore, but as Mr.Wadinga is apparently exempt from the rules.....
...the only "idea really too far fetched for words" is the petulant insistence of this guy to refuse what is evident to everybody and explained based on the "limited visibility" concept (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8335&start=255#p81602) to which he is unable to answer, thus mocking instead, speaking of "behemoth" vs... a small boat... (not mentioning the length and the height of both ships)... an attitude already seen several times from him.

Had really visibility been "exceptional", White would have been able to see the Germans from almost 30 sm, being positioned at a height of 50 meters over the sea, not only from around 19 sm. Only when within visibility, one could make the difference between the bigger and the smaller, not before.


Luckily everybody has discarded his speculation and he is left alone trying to refute the evidences, while unable to present his own alternative to "OS1": viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8335&start=225#p81563 and download/file.php?id=3345 .



No comment about his "confused reasoning" regarding 7° at 19 sm (implying a distance between BS and PG of 4,5 km) vs 7° at 15000 meters (implying a distance of 1,9 km)...



Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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