The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

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wadinga
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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by wadinga »

Hello Alberto,
repeatedly accused me to hide and redact info
Maybe you don't realise you are doing it. :D When Herr Nilsson directed us to a map:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Naval-History- ... B00N1VOAYW

you helpfully reproduced it, but with the whole western third chopped off. Including most of the Outer Zone of the Bay of Biscay. I wonder why? :cool:

Unlike Roskill the papers of Somerville and Cunningham have been published and I have just got copies. They provide additional evidence. Somerville wrote surprisingly candid personal letters to his wife and others. Many offer his "live" feisty commentary and thoughts on events.

For instance for the 27th:

"Well it is good work that we got that blighter- the newest battleship on her first outing and it shows what a long arm the British Navy has.... TL [Their Lordships] have got a bit crapulous with Jack Tovey this morning and asked what the hell he was doing going off and leaving her still afloat. Must confess I was rather surprised. It was old Wake-Walker who told Dorsetshire to go in and torpedo her at close range."

So now we have independent, contemporary confirmation that the 11:37B message happened when logged on the morning of the 27th. Crapulous- characterized by intemperance

Presumably if TL had got at all crapulous on the 26th, Somerville would have noticed, especially since he was still so sensitive about them getting crapulous with him the previous year.

All the best

wadinga
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Wadinga wrote: "....you helpfully reproduced it, but with the whole western third chopped off.... I wonder why? "
Poor Sean,
now I wonder if you are unable to read maps or just in bad faith...... :think:
In the link https://www.amazon.co.uk/Naval-History- ... B00N1VOAYW there are 3 maps, not only one. I have NOT "chopped" any part of the second map......just outlined the "Bay of Biscay" as clearly positioned. :negative:
Nothing changes using your preferred first one, with the same "Bay of Biscay", of course, as the bay is ONLY ONE in any map (with your error only less easily readable, that's why I chose (not chopped) this one viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8246&start=105#p77431, the second in the SAME link :oops: ).
Bay_of_Biscay_Wadinga_reduced.jpg
Bay_of_Biscay_Wadinga_reduced.jpg (95.58 KiB) Viewed 529 times
You are really too bad at maps (+ unable to open and understand a simple link) to continue a productive discussion with you !


you wrote: "TL have got a bit crapulous with Jack Tovey...It was old Wake-Walker who told Dorsetshire to go in and torpedo her at close range"
did Somerville notice how crapulous TL had got with Wake-Walker when they sent him the "intentions" signal ? :lol:
No ? Then your independent witness was not very attentive to TL mood......
Did you asked yourself why Somerville felt the need to mention the same W-W regarding TL mood against Tovey ? :think:



BTW, as you have got access to additional papers, possibly you will also find (AND UNDERSTAND :wink: ) additional evidence regarding the Court Martial requested by Pound to Tovey for Wake-Walker......
Let's see if you will have the fairness to post it in the relevant thread.
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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wadinga
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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by wadinga »

Hello Alberto,
Thanks for posting the entire Bay of Biscay map.
So now we have independent, contemporary confirmation that the 11:37B message happened when logged on the morning of the 27th. Crapulous- characterized by intemperance
Do you accept?

All the best

Wadinga
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Hi Sean,
thanks for admitting that you had accused me WITHOUT ANY REASON, once again..... :stop:



The fact that Somerville mentions only the 1137/27 signal DOES NOT mean the 25 afternoon one does not exist, as well as the "intentions" signal on May 24..... Options 1) and 3) regarding the "shore of France" message are still possible (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8246&start=90#p77415).
Do you admit that the unsolicited mention of W-W is a clear sign he was fully aware of the criticism already circulating against him ? :wink:



Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by wadinga »

Hello Alberto,
thanks for admitting that you had accused me WITHOUT ANY REASON, once again
The map you posted on Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:02 am was a redacted version of the map you posted on Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:43 pm
You did not chop it yourself but selected an existing version to distort the truth.
(with your error only less easily readable, that's why I chose (not chopped)
Your claim of innocence :angel: through selecting a misleading edit instead of creating it is splendid :D

The legend you neglected to select says the whole map is titled Bay of Biscay in LARGE PRINT.
Do you admit that the unsolicited mention of W-W is a clear sign he was fully aware of the criticism already circulating against him ?
No.

I know you perceive evidence through the distorting mirror of your obsession to destroy these mens' reputation, and relentlessly amplify the non-existent to support your allegations, but this is just Somerville's private letter to his wife. It was not meant for public evaluation and merely records that Wake-Walker gave the order for the Final Destruction of the Bismarck, by torpedo.

He observed on the 11:37B because it was so unusual, and he may have independently considered it was "the Stupidest and ill conceived signal ever sent".
additional evidence regarding the Court Martial requested by Pound to Tovey for Wake-Walker......
so you think your Silver Bullet you want to keep secret might be in these papers. :think: Interesting!

All the best

wadinga
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Sean,
I will not even comment on such obvious LIES from you ! If you are unable to see that there are 3 maps in a link, it's not my fault, you should ask yourself what's the problem with your mental processes....

Of course, whatever map you choose there is only one "Bay of Biscay" , geographically well defined (and indicated in the map), plus some anti-submarine operation (called "Bay of Biscay") patrol areas, according to which the whole Great Britain would be located in the "Inner Zone of the Bay of Biscay", according to your reasoning.... :negative:


Re. Somerville letter, to use your words, "I know you perceive evidence through the distorting mirror of your obsession to save these mens' reputation"...but it's a waste of time and effort..... :negative:


Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

The timing Winston Churchill was referencing to about the messages are clear between 18:21 of May 26th, ... and 00:09 of May 27th :
On this Monday night ( May 26th, 1941 ) I went to the Admiralty and watched the scene on the charts in the War Room, where the news steamed in every few minutes.

" What are you doing here ? " I said to the Controller Adm Fraser.
" I am waiting to see what I have got to repair ", he said.

.....

Fuel was a grave anxiety, and Adm Tovey had decided that unless the Bismarck’s speed could be greatly reduced he would have to abandon the chase at midnight. ( ref. msg at 18:21/26th )

I suggested to the First Sea Lord, and he signalled accordingly, that he should be towed home if necessary, but by then it was known that the Bismarck was actually steaming in the wrong direction.

Her main armament was uninjured, and Admiral Tovey had decided to bring her to battle in the morning. ( ref. msg 00:09/27th )

....

Four ( 4 ) hours passed quickly away and when I left I could see that Admiral Pound and his select company of experts were sure that Bismarck was doomed.

It seems that the time frame Sir Churchill was referencing can be associated to the time slot :

from 20:00/26th - 20:30/26th ---> until 24:00/26th - 00:30/27th

We need now to properly correlate what Adm Tovey wrote on his letters being occurred on the same time slot.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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wadinga
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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by wadinga »

Hello Antonio,
We need now to properly correlate what Adm Tovey wrote on his letters being occurred on the same time slot
This would actually be possible if your co-author wasn't petulantly withholding the information in those letters. Perhaps you can persuade him to change his mind? :D
and he signalled accordingly,
There is no evidence he did this.
but by then it was known that the Bismarck was actually steaming in the wrong direction.
Sheffield reported Bismarck steering 115T at 19:37B on the 26th but by 21:13B was reporting Bismarck steering 340T which is the origin of the famous "Larcom has joined the Reciprocal Club" observation. At 21:40 Sheffield reported Bismarck steering 000T.

Therefore the earliest Churchill can have been told about Bismarck's change of heading was 21:13B plus receipt and decoding time. At this time any specious nonsense about the "Shores of France" became obsolete, because Bismarck was not heading anywhere near there.

"We cannor Envisage" and the "Shores of France" are obvious Churchillisms and to me it is clear Pound indulged the PM with the pretence he would send such a drafted message without actually doing so. It would be bloody silly and grossly irresponsible to order Tovey to throw his flagship, crew and own life away in a pointless chase after an uncatchable foe. The ridiculous concept of towing KG V under sustained U-boat and air attack could only have been thought up by a politician whose arrogance meant thought he knew far more about naval matters than he actually did.

By,say, 21:30B it was no longer necessary, but Pound thought he would still stick his own oar in with a little advice about reminding Tovey he could use his destroyers for a night attack. "Dooh! Gee boss, thanks, I would never have thought of that!" thought Tovey, but kept transmissions to a minimum as he was maintaining radio silence.

However, Tovey's singlemindedness to get on with the job overnight and the following day without Head Office interference, meant he did not give enough progress reports to satisfy the anxious. When, at 10:28B on the 27th the Admiralty intercepted his message to Somerville, saying Bismarck was still afloat and he was breaking off for fuel, frustration boiled over. Where was Churchill then? We know he was addressing the House of Commons when the news of the sinking came through, but was he pestering Pound senseless for news before he went in?

Was it as a result that "the Stupidest and most ill-considered signal" 11:37B was sent? Mangled wording from the draft, but never sent message from the previous night with the irrelevant "Shores of France" chopped out, and "at the scene" substituted?

So how then could Tovey remember the direct order to sail to the "Shores of France"? I believe in the heated phone call on arrival, whilst being haranged by an angry Tovey, Pound blurted out that the message could have been far stupider, and described the draft. This did nothing to cool the situation and during the continuing argy-bargy, Pound also mentioned he had been told to get CMDS underway, although I believe he had no intention of doing so. By then the situation was irredeemable and although Tovey continued in his role, his trust in Pound to protect serving commanders from ill-informed political interference never recovered. Other incidents would have reinforced this attitude, eg PQ 17.

By the time Pound applied his Standard Operating Procedure, of handling Winston's Chequers rant about wanting Leach and Wake-Walker's "butts", in his pusillanimous interim report on the Monday, the great Man/Beast had moved on to other matters, and there was no demand from anywhere for CMDS.

By the early 1950s fact and "might have been" had become completely muddled in Tovey's memory, and he was convinced he had received the draft even though it was never sent. This was the source of his outrage heading all four letters. He was convinced he had personally defeated the CMDS threat just by saying no and threatening to haul down his flag in the phone call. Interestingly this was the same day Cunningham offered his resignation as C-in-C Mediterranean, after the Crete debacle as well.

Out of this over-reliance on a single witness recollection has come the whole CMDS saga. Other matters discussed in the same phone call are shown to be inaccurate including non-existent signals, details like the expunging and the CMDS itself are not included at every retelling, and sadly authors who want the thrill of exposing an intemperate Prime Minister influence retell without investigating.

We need more detail about the Tovey-Roskill letters. Come on Alberto. Publish and damn the consequences.

All the best

wadinga
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Hi Sean,
be assured, I can't care less about the consequences !

I'm just waiting for your public excuses for having "petulantly" and repeatedly accused me of posting altered info, without any substance.... Else, there is NO point in posting them....:negative:


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by wadinga »

Hello Antonio,

Since Alberto is still being difficult :angel: about releasing information about the Roskill letters and Antonio wants to discuss them, here is a chronological round-up

in another letter to Bellairs (1950) Tovey said it was :
" you are to continue the pursuit right up to the shores of France even if you have to be towed home "
Additional: from Kennedy "Years later Tovey wrote that if he had known it was Churchill, he would certainly have referred to the fact in his despatch" 2nd October 1950


in another letter to Roskill (1954) Tovey says that the message was :
" ordering me to continue the chase up to the shores of France, even if the K.G.V. had to be towed back "
"was having it espunged from the records"

Additional from Kennedy "Again in 1954 he was under the impression he had received the signal about KG V being towed home before Ark Royal's last attack and decided that "if Ark Royal failed to damage the Bismarck.....to disobey the signal and turn back while we still had enough oil to get back to an English port."

Kennedy says there were two letters in November 1954 on 11th and 20th, which belongs to which letter is unclear.

In the "Court Martial" letter from December 1961, Tovey wrote that the message was :
" you are to continue the pursuit right up the coast of France, even if it means your ship being towed back "

This is the letter with the 14/12/1961 Paragraph 2 description of the Court Martial threat

But not actually finally because

in one letter (1962), Tovey wrote to Roskill that the text was :
" if necessary she is to be pursued right up to the shores of France, even if the K.G.V. has to be towed home "



So to summarize we now have four letters to Roskill, preceded by one to Bellairs. Only Alberto (and Cag) knows the content of all five.

I am personally astonished that Tovey could not apparently identify Churchill's hand in all of this. It was well understood by Somerville and Cunningham (and throughout the fleet) that the PM was the instigator of their troubles over Sparviento and the idea of wasting Barham as a blockship at Tripoli, the tow home business was not the concept of an experienced seaman like Pound and the even the phraseology was not seamanlike. "We cannot envisage the situation from your signals" indeed. What's wrong with "Report current situation."?

Sadly it looks like an excuse to brag slightly to another former officer, saying: the only reason I did not bravely comment in my despatch about the signal was that I thought it was Pound being stupid instead of Churchill.

Tovey says he would disobey the "Shores of France" even if he was subsequently court-martialled, yet when he states his plan to break off the chase at midnight 18:21B/26 he does not refer to any inbound Admiralty message.

All the best

wadinga
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Wadinga wrote: "Since Alberto is still being difficult :angel: about releasing information about the Roskill letters "
Since Wadinga "is still being difficult about" presenting his public excuses...... he will stay without any additional information, just posting his own guesswork, supported by Kennedy (once more) wrong account...... :lol:


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by wadinga »

Hello All,

Tovey wrote to Cunningham (quoted Cunningham Papers) on 17th October 1940

"My next meeting with the PM was at dinner the next night (1st Lord, Harwood and self being the only ones there), it was a fascinating experience.........you know the PM much better than I do and you will understand how I loved him at first sight, but he made such astounding statements about naval warfare both at home and abroad I still don't know if he was wanting to find out of I would applaud everything he said or whether he believes half of what he says...."

I would have thought he could have realised very soon after reception that the 11:37B content about securing and maintaining a tow in the prevailing wind weather conditions under certain U boat and Luftwaffe attack was clearly an ignorant layman's input.

How could Pound say the signal should "never have been sent" when it had his signature on it? How could he possibly apologise for its content without claiming its stupidity as his own, instead of citing the excuse of unbearable political pressure. Who was "expunging it" supposed to help? It made no difference to Tovey that it was sent, Bismarck was sunk by then. It might make Pound look slightly less stupid but then how was that supposed to cheer Tovey up? Not to mention that with a moment's thought it was impossible to achieve.

The more one examines the details of Tovey's letters, the less reliable and credible they become. What a pity Kennedy did not use his better judgement and cover Tovey's embarrassment by ignoring their content as Roskill had done for 20 years.

All the best

wadinga
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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by dunmunro »

The really terrible thing is that they want to prove an elderly man's memory was sound, when it obviously was not, so they then can hang him for criminal conspiracy.
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

:lol: elderly? In 1950 ? Why don't you repeat your first version about Tovey's "dementia" now ? Very, very funny! :lol:
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by dunmunro »

Alberto Virtuani wrote::lol: elderly? In 1950 ? Why don't you repeat your first version about Tovey's "dementia" now ? Very, very funny! :lol:
Tovey was 65 in 1950.
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