Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Wadinga wrote: "This contradicts, as do most other reports the assumption (not proven fact) that NH69722 depicts Bismarck's very first salvo, fired after PG has already deposited shell casings. The second account says Bismarck has fired two salvoes before PG starts. "
Hi Sean,
I see that F.O.Busch contradicts himself (his caption says this is the BS very first salvo) but the analysis of the photo still shows no smoke in the air behind Bismarck and PG expended cartridge and own smoke (higher in the air).

The timing is recorded by both Schmalenbach and Brinkmann and it is 5:55 for open fire of both German ships.

Of course your own interpretation and timing of the photo is welcome as well as Marc's one, if you have one...... :wink:


Bye, Alberto
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Herr Nilsson »

Alberto Virtuani wrote:Hi Marc,
you wrote:"I believe Schmalenbachs account contains a lot of usefull information. I take the number of salvoes into consideration."
we agree here (even if I don't see yet a clear answer to my question re. your opinion on the salvo count.....but I guess I should accept this ambiguous statement :( )


you wrote: "The official reports are saying nothing about simultaneously. "
here I totally disagree (at least reading the English translation of the official reports), please see below:
Schmalenbach: "Hood had fired 4 to 5 salvos by the time Bismarck and we had answered"
Brinkmann: ""5:53: Hood and KGV open fire....... 5:55 PG and Bismarck return fire..."
crystal clear for me: BS and PG open fire together..... a "native speaking" interpretation is welcome of course .....


I asked: "Now, be so kind to let us know your interpretation and timing of the photo, please."

you wrote: "NH 69722 can't be Bismarck' very first salvo."
.....and this again is neither a motivated answer nor an interpretation..... :negative: ......while I have stated clearly why I believe this is the very first salvo of both ships (smoke analysis in addition to F.O.Busch caption) , at what time it has been taken (5:55) on which course (220°) and with a distance of 1500, 2000 meters between the 2 ships.

Let me try again: in your opinion 1) why this is not the first salvo ? 2) what is the battle time of this photo ? and 3) which salvo number is this one ? 4) what is the course and relative position of the 2 ships ?


Bye, Alberto
Hello Alberto,

to get it clear, my approach is just different than your. My opinion is that I (and possibly we all) often do not understand what the sources are really saying. Therefore I can answer questions sometimes and sometimes not. I really don't want to annoy you and I hope you can forgive me.

Regarding simultaneously:

One again, the war diary does relate to Prinz Eugen not Bismarck. Bismarck is just a minor point in it. All times relate to Prinz Eugen exclusively, because on Bismarck they were writing their own war diary. That means, that there is not necessarily a discrepance, because such wording is a simplification. Maybe we can agree that Schmalenbach's and Brinkmann's accounts can be read in different ways.

Regarding NH69722:

1) because Prinz Eugen had already fired shells and according to all accounts Bismarck fired first
2) probably very early in the battle
3) I don't know, but definitely not the first salvo (see 1) )
4) if Prinz Eugen's battle map is right and my assumption at 2) is right the course is probably 220°. I'm not sure about the distance.
Regards

Marc

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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Paul Cadogan wrote: "even if Luetjens DID give the order for Bismarck to fire, why would Schneider wait for the order to be given to PG?"
Hi Paul,
the order is executive when the JD flag is lowered , I guess. At the same time Lutjens would have transmitted the order to Lindemann....

you wrote: "10 salvos fit remarkably well with PoW's salvo plot up to 0558."
Not if we take into account "Hood out of action" after 5:56 and only sporadically firing......

you wrote: "is it likely that the photographer would have been set up to capture Bismarck's very first salvo when he did not know when she was going to fire? "
Not necessarily, if PG had already fired, the photograph would be ready to take a photo some seconds after BS open fire (the smoke is already in the air since some seconds at least.

you wrote: "So...were there 2 bracketing groups or one? "
I would kindly suggest to review the thread viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5752&start=360 (starting from this page till the end, jsut to make the long story a bit shorter) where we have already debated Jasper GAR interpretation in detail


Bye, Alberto
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

@Herr Nilsson:
Hi Marc,
thanks for your effort explaining better the following 2 points:

Re.simultaneously, I agree we have to disagree interpreting them.
Everybody can make up his own mind about the meaning of statements like Schmalenbach and Brinkmann in the PG KTB as they are not generic and not incidental when related to BS.
Schmalenbach: "Hood had fired 4 to 5 salvos by the time Bismarck and we had answered"
Brinkmann: ""5:53: Hood and KGV open fire....... 5:55 PG and Bismarck return fire..."


Re. photo NH69722 (sorry for bad quality version, the HR and complete one with cartridges is not allowed here):
1438293456070.jpg
1438293456070.jpg (65.87 KiB) Viewed 1818 times
1) according to all accounts but not according to Busch caption.... I trust the photo more than accounts (see 3)
2) agree
3) the photo is taken under exactly the same conditions than others taken at the end of battle, that clearly show several BS salvos in the air (see below thanks to an Antonio Bonomi's old post, in the same thread I mentioned above):
BA_146_1990_061_027.jpg
BA_146_1990_061_027.jpg (30.52 KiB) Viewed 1818 times
In NH69722 we have only 2 salvos in the air. There are NO others. One is surely fired from BS (left one) and the other (right one) is IMO from PG because of the expended cartridges. The second salvo cannot be BS second one as, at early stage of battle, the flight time is around 36 seconds, this one should be much closer in time if we want to say it is from BS.
Accounts and reports can say different things, photo is for sure a more solid evidence.
But again I agree we can disagree on this interpretation.
4) ok


Bottom line, from your answers, I'm afraid I have to back to Carthage (and, using your words, I really don't want to annoy you and I hope you can forgive me):
without a complete sequence of photos, frames, distances, tracks and salvo numberings for all ships, I have still to embrace the only complete scenario: Antonio's......


Bye, Alberto
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Herr Nilsson »

Alberto,

ok, we agree to disagree. However, in his detailed report, Brinkmann states explicitly that Bismarck fired first. That means that his statement in the timeline of the war diary is a simplification.

If the photo taken at the end of the battle was made under the same conditions, where is the smoke of the several salvoes fired by Prinz Eugen?
Regards

Marc

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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

@Herr Nilsson:
we surely agree to disagree, but even accepting that the KTB is just a "simplification" :shock: :shock: Brinkmann was simple but precise enough to state that BOTH SHIPS opened fire at 5:55. So, even if PG opened fire after Bismarck (that is not what NH69722 is telling us), it would be a matter of seconds (as obvious, after the permission to fire given by Lutjens).


Re. the photo taken at the end of the engagement, Bismarck is on course 220°(same conditions as in NH69722) but you should notice that PG is not sailing anymore on the same course as BS, allowing the camera to get a glance of her own smoke. She is now on course 270°/ 280°, as you see looking at her starboard railings well visible in the photo I have posted..... therefore her turrets are trained aft and her smoke is on her port side, left well BEHIND the ship, and out of the field of the camera......

Now your interpretation, if any, of this last photo ? :wink:


Bye, Alberto
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Herr Nilsson »

Here you are:

Image
Regards

Marc

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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

@Herr Nilsson:
Hi Marc,
here what ?
I see just a superposition of two images..... Would you be so kind to elaborate and explain your theory, if not too much a disturb for you ? :negative:

Bye, Alberto
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Herr Nilsson »

You can see that the smoke on NH 69722 is exactly at the same place like "salvo 23" on the other picture. Everything matches perfectly....assumed that the photo was taken under exactly the same conditions.
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Marc

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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Hi Marc,
thanks, now I see what you mean, but I must say that smoke is just smoke and there is only a slightly similar shape of different salvo smokes...... I do see your personal interpretation of the NH69722, with 2 smokes from BS salvos, and I have to accept it.

My interpretation, supported also by the cartridges on PG deck, is that the "left" smoke is between PG and Bismarck (look at the fairly good definition of the smoke shape compared to an "indefinite" and faded shape of the "salvo23" in the late engagement photo, despite the latter has a better overall image definition as it's well visible in the clouds,waves, etc).
In addition,BS distance from PG is obviously very different in the 2 photos , with the NH69722 showing BS at around 2000 meters and the late engagement photo at (very roughly) 1000 meters distance.
In NH69722, it's impossible that the left salvo is still visible with such a better definition (compared to salvo 23) at a distance that is double. :think:
BA 68_15_24_small.jpg
BA 68_15_24_small.jpg (63.45 KiB) Viewed 1765 times
BA_146_1990_061_027_small.jpg
BA_146_1990_061_027_small.jpg (42.69 KiB) Viewed 1765 times


I understand my interpretation may be considered very personal as well (without knowing the camera and printing parameters used we are just guessing), and I think we are both discussing based on quite weak arguments...... In any case, even admitting that your theory is right, we just would have the Vollsalve in the air (left salvo) and a 1st Gabelgruppe semi-salvo just fired, with PG that has already fired at least her first Vollsalve...... A matter of seconds between the 2 ships in open fire, for sure not 2+ minutes.....


Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Herr Nilsson »

I think the distance is no problem, because I scaled the later picture down to match Bismarck's silhouette. The relative distance between smoke and Bismarck in both pictures is the same.

...and don't forget that Busch's book was for propaganda purposes. Imagine a caption "Bismarck fires her second salvo"....how boring! :lol:

However, important is: we can agree that sources can be interpreted in different ways.
Regards

Marc

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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Hi Marc,
absolutely, we can agree on that.

Re. distance, my point was just that the shape of the left smoke in NH69722 in more defined even at longer distance (as per your interpretation, being a BS salvo), despite an overall worse definition of the photo...... That's why I would tend to see it between PG and BS.....

Bye, Alberto
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Herr Nilsson »

Hard to say, possibly the contrast could be important.
Regards

Marc

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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Hi all,
I just realized that (as anyone here would have realized already) I have mixed up left and right hand..... :oops: in my last two posts..... you should read "right salvo" instead of "left salvo" and viceversa..... so sorry . :pray:


Bye, Alberto
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by paulcadogan »

Alberto Virtuani wrote:the order is executive when the JD flag is lowered , I guess. At the same time Lutjens would have transmitted the order to Lindemann....
Nope:
Jot Dora
JD Signal code used by the German ships for the command to "Permission to fire at will" or "Commence firing when ready".
http://www.kbismarck.com/glossary.html

In the RN as well - the open fire signal flag is an exception to the execution protocol, once it is raised all ships are free to fire at will. Ted Briggs description of his role in raising "Flag 5" at Mers-el-Kebir includes this fact and this is why Resolution and Valiant opened fire before Hood.

So it could very well be that, if the Lindemann story is true, Bismarck may have fired before the JD signal was raised to give PG her permission. Bismarck firing first could also explain why the British attributed the boat deck hit to her third salvo, when Prinz Eugen claimed it was her (PG's) second.
Alberto Virtuani wrote: you wrote: "10 salvos fit remarkably well with PoW's salvo plot up to 0558."

Not if we take into account "Hood out of action" after 5:56 and only sporadically firing......
OK, let's look at the "Hood out of action" notation. What does "out of action" mean in this case?

Damaged to the point that she was unable to participate further in the action, but still afloat? The boat deck hit did not do that. It had no effect on her main armament gunnery control systems, main turrets, electrical systems, boilers or engines. The spotting top hit did not do that. It may have robbed her of her best positioned spotters and likely the function of her 284 gunnery radar, but her main gunnery director atop her conning tower with a 30 foot optical RF was intact and functional, as was her transmitting station and all four 15-inch turrets - no loss of central fire control. Witnesses noted "Hood continued to fire". She did not fire sporadically. Nothing had happened to her to cause that. (Alberto I'm picking up your underlining habit! :angel: )

So...how come the salvo plot has the designation "Hood out of action" but yet it fails to mention "Hood sunk"??? Gentlemen I put it to you that the notation "Hood out of action" is an erroneously placed indication of Hood's destruction, the point at which she was no longer able to take part in the action.

How could this error be made?? Hood is described throughout the testimonies of British witnesses, including the survivors, as blowing up immediately after the turn to open the A-arcs. On the Rowell map and the salvo plot, that turn is placed at 0554:50 (which IMHO is also an error as it was the time the flag was raised, not the time of execution), so whoever drew the salvo plot incorrectly placed her removal from the action at 0556 - too early! But of course the gunnery person had specific times for PoW's Y-turret coming "on line" and the 5.25's opening fire and noted them correctly.

On the other hand Rowell, on his track chart, placed Hood's demise at the time that was determined the day after the action from "the available information" - 0600.
Alberto Virtuani wrote:I would kindly suggest to review the thread viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5752&start=360 (starting from this page till the end, jsut to make the long story a bit shorter) where we have already debated Jasper GAR interpretation in detail
Sure, I get that Alberto, but it still doesn't answer my question: Why would Jasper fire a gabelgruppe again, when his 4-hektogruppe had already bracketed Hood and given him her range (2 shells short, others over, but a spectacular fire started suggesting a hit)?? Seems like a waste of shells to me, when he could have gone to "Full salvos good rapid" as Schneider did.

Paul
Qui invidet minor est - He who envies is the lesser man
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