Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:16 am

Marc,
A German native speaker wrote: "The entry in the book says only that PG and BS (= both german ships, "Verband") fired starting at 5:55. I'm sorry, but my mother tongue is german"
Google Translator says that "wird das Feuer von PG und BS erwiedert" means "the fire is returned/reciprocated by PG and BS". As evident and logical in ANY western language, when you use an "and" to link two subjects (or "agents" in case of a passive construction, like here): the same action applies to BOTH, confirmed by the subsequent phrase that both fired initially at Hood. :oops:

PG_KTB_Brinkmann_open_fire_2.jpg
PG_KTB_Brinkmann_open_fire_2.jpg (74.05 KiB) Viewed 854 times


you wrote: " I don't want to be dragged to same low level."
I warn you, I will not allow you to repeat such words. :negative: Apparently I had been too fair not underlining enough how YOUR low trick of misusing German language (pretended :lol: ) knowledge had been unmasked by another (more fair or less sneaky than you) German native speaker. You have played very LOW here and you have lost in front of everybody. Sorry for you. :kaput:


We can debate whether the PG KTB entry is right or wrong in its substance, or whether PG fired first or not, but stop inventing your own interpretation of what is clearly written in the KTB ("PG und BS" both returned fire at 05:55, two minutes after the British). It would have been much better for you to shut up than to come back after such a public shame. :negative:


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

Thorsten Wahl
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Thorsten Wahl » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:43 am

There seems a typing error in several documents regarding the distance of the Denmark strait battle
290 hm should be 208 hm

correct value can be found in
Akte Unternehmung der Kampfgruppe Bismarck zum Handelskrieg im Atlantik
Funkspruch 25 Mai 1941 Uhrzeitgruppe 0401, 0428, 0417, 0443
... Laufendes Gefecht zwischen 208 hm und 180 hm...
Last edited by Thorsten Wahl on Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Meine Herren, es kann ein siebenjähriger, es kann ein dreißigjähriger Krieg werden – und wehe dem, der zuerst die Lunte in das Pulverfaß schleudert!

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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Thorsten Wahl » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:48 am

double post
Meine Herren, es kann ein siebenjähriger, es kann ein dreißigjähriger Krieg werden – und wehe dem, der zuerst die Lunte in das Pulverfaß schleudert!

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:56 am

Hello everybody,

@ Thorsten Wahl,

this way everybody should be able to understand your input, ... :wink:

http://hmshood.com/history/denmarkstrai ... tlemap.gif

The distance of 207 hm ( hectometers ) between Prinz Eugen and the enemy was measured at 05:55 as we can see.

Obviously the Bismarck was behind the Prinz Eugen and her evaluation of the enemy was a bit more on the same moment, ... so 208 hm ( hectometers ) is close to perfection.

More, Prinz Eugen cannot have opened fire on Hood before the change of target ordered by Adm Lutjens from the " links ( PoW ) " to the "rechten gegner ( Hood ) ", ... and that happened at 05:55 as the Prinz Eugen battle map shows too.

The Lagemann photo showing both the Prinz Eugen and the Bismarck first salvo closes this debate, ... just as I have explained.

From Tedd Briggs :
Captain Kerr then ordered: 'Open fire.' From the control tower the gunnery officer bellowed: 'Shoot.' And the warning gong replied before the Hood's first salvo belched out in an ear-pulsating roar, leaving behind a cloud of brown cordite smoke, which swept by the compass platform. Seconds later a duller boom came from our starboard quarter as the Prince of Wales unleashed her first fourteen-inch salvo.

The menacing thunder of our guns snapped the tension. All my traces of anxiety and fright left me momentarily. I was riveted with fascination as I counted off the seconds for our shells to land -20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25...then tiny spouts of water, two extremely close to the pinpoints on the horizon. Suddenly a report from the spotting-top made Holland realize he had blundered. 'We're shooting at the wrong ship. The Bismarck's on the right, not the left.' Our shells had been falling near the Prinz Eugen, which many hours earlier had begun to lead the German raiding force when the Bismarck's forward radar failed. Holland seemed hardly perturbed and in the same monotonous voice said: 'Shift target to the right.'

Within the next two minutes the Hood's foremost turrets managed to ram in six salvoes each at the Bismarck. I counted each time, expecting to see a hit registered. The first salvo pockmarked the sea around her, and the third appeared to spark off a dull glow. I thought we had got in the first blow, but I was wrong.

Suddenly it intrigued me to see four star-like golden flashes, with red centres, spangle along the side of the Bismarck. But I had no time to admire them. Those first pretty pyrotechnics were four fifteen-inch shells coming our way, and deep, clammy, numbing fear returned. That express train, which I had last heard when the French fired on us at Oran, was increasing in crescendo. It passed overhead. Where it landed I was not sure. My eyes were on the two ships rapidly becoming more visible on the starboard bow. They were still winking at us threateningly. But the next salvo was not just a threat. Not far from our starboard beam there were two, no three, no four high splashes of foam, tinted with an erupting dirty brown fringe. Then I was flung off my feet. My ears were ringing as if I had been in the striking-chamber of Big Ben. I picked myself up, thinking I had made a complete fool of myself, but everyone else on the compass platform was also scrambling to his feet. 'Tiny' Gregson walked almost sedately out to the starboard wing of the platform to find out what had happened. 'We've been hit at the base of the mainmast, sir, and we're on fire,' he reported, almost as if we were on manoeuvres.
By the way, ... Danke Schon, ...


Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Herr Nilsson » Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:03 pm

@Alberto

I want to cite myself:
Herr Nilsson wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:00 pm
You can read it that way you do, but you can read it like Prinz Eugen opens fire and Bismarck is already firing.
Again, yes, you can read it the way you do.

My last try to explain what I mean:

Antonio and Alberto have arranged to go for a walk. Both live in a walking distance of 2 minutes. Antonio leaves his home at 0553 by foot. Alberto keeps a diary (writing like Caesar in third person :wink: ). His diary entry at 0555 is "Antonio and Alberto are walking". What did Antonio do between 0553 and 0555?

Anyway, I don’t say that is the right interpretation, but it is a possible one. Much more important is that Bismarck fired before Prinz Eugen.

@Antonio

No, Thorsten says Hood opened fire at 208 hm according German sources.
Thorsten Wahl wrote:There seems a typing error in several documents regarding the distance of the Denmark strait battle
290 hm should be 208 hm

correct value can be found in
Akte Unternehmung der Kampfgruppe Bismarck zum Handelskrieg im Atlantik
Funkspruch 25 Mai 1941 Uhrzeitgruppe 0401, 0428, 0417, 0443
... Laufendes Gefecht zwischen 208 hm und 180 hm...
The "laufende Gefecht" started when Hood opened fire.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:14 pm

Herr Nilsson wrote: "you can read it like Prinz Eugen opens fire and Bismarck is already firing"
NO, only you can.
"wird das Feuer von PG und BS erwiedert" means "the fire is returned/reciprocated by PG and BS" at 05:55 . FULL STOP. :stop:

Also, please avoid other shameful fantastic interpretations, leaving Thorsten to comment on his thoughts, as you are clearly not in good shape at all with...interpretations. :lol:


Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Herr Nilsson » Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:19 pm

@Alberto

If you say so.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)

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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:20 pm

@Herr Nilsson:
Yes, I do, as well as other ...native german speaker (and basic grammar). :stop:


@Antonio:
thanks for posting Ted Briggs confirming that even from British side someone was realizing the delay of 6 salvos (2,5 to 3 minutes) between Hood and Bismarck open fire !
Dunmunro had (histerically) written: "We NO STATEMENTS FROM THE RN SIDE THAT BISMARCK DELAYED FIRE. NONE!!!"
:lol: :lol: :lol:



Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:47 pm, edited 3 times in total.
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Herr Nilsson » Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:33 pm

Who? Northcape? He has not. He said "both german ships fired starting at 5:55". That is a correct interpretation (remember my: You can read it that way you do) and it remains correct in any case for Prinz Eugen. I just say one can read it different for Bismarck.
Regards

Marc

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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Herr Nilsson » Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:38 pm

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:14 pm
Also, please avoid other shameful fantastic interpretations, leaving Thorsten to comment on his thoughts, as you are clearly not in good shape at all with...interpretations. :lol:


Bye, Alberto
Image
Thorsten Wahl wrote:There seems a typing error in several documents regarding the distance of the Denmark strait battle
290 hm should be 208 hm
Last edited by Herr Nilsson on Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:41 pm

Herr Nilsson wrote: " I just say one can read it different for Bismarck."
NO ! Only you can, apparently NO OTHER ONE can invent such a convoluted way of interpreting what is written in an official report:
05:53 Hood and KGV open fire (NOT Bismarck)
05:55 PG and BS return fire .

You can say PG KTB is wrong, but you can't interpret the way you would like what is written in German, in English or in any other language:
"wird das Feuer von PG und BS erwiedert" means "the fire is returned/reciprocated by PG and BS", at 05:55.

You don't like having been rubbished in public by another german native speaker.... your problem, you just got what you deserved as you should have avoided a very low language trick.... :lol:
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Herr Nilsson » Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:50 pm

PG's war diary is PG's war diary and not BS's. Please remember:
521-532.jpg
521-532.jpg (15.92 KiB) Viewed 773 times
"Schiff" is singular and means just PG. According your logic BS made no movements.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:54 pm

Hello everybody,

we need a German translator here, … since I can only use my brain, … and a translator.

Lets see how the German native language will translate this one from Group West :

Group_West_.jpg
Group_West_.jpg (80.87 KiB) Viewed 771 times

What das it mean : " ... von 05:55 bis 06:01 ... " ... :think:


Hoping that nobody will try to state that it was the whole battle lenght neither on the German side ( cease fire at 06:09 ) or on the British side, ... from 05:52 and 30 seconds until ... the PoW retreat at 06:03, ... according to the Admiralty Battle Summary number 5.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:01 pm

Hello everybody,

apparently Herr Nilsson is in clear difficulties and now posts other entries of PG KTB to avoid to admit his low trick and his public shame. :lol:

PG_KTB_Brinkmann_open_fire_2.jpg
PG_KTB_Brinkmann_open_fire_2.jpg (74.05 KiB) Viewed 771 times

This means for everybody (except for this guy) that at 05:53 Hood and PoW had opened fire, while at 05:55 "fire is returned by PG and BS", as confirmed by a native German speaker.

Ridiculous..... :lol:
As, Antonio Bonomi said: "The black list increased ..." as this guy has not presented his excuses and insists.


Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Herr Nilsson » Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:06 pm

Antonio Bonomi wrote:Hoping that nobody will try to state that it was the whole battle lenght ..
Group West says so.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)

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