why did lutjens break radio silence

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: why did lutjens break radio silence

Post by Herr Nilsson » Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:01 am

Antonio Bonomi wrote:Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

you asked :
@Antonio,

Antonio Bonomi wrote : ... it was Prinz Eugen the first ship to open fire, .... not Bismarck, ..

Are you sure? :wink:
YES Marc, I am sure based on the photo Nh 69722, showing the first salvo of both Bismarck as well as the Prinz Eugen one, ... and the Prinz Eugen main guns smoke we see on that photo is already falling behind the heavy cruiser while the Bismarck one has just been fired and the smoke is still close to Bismarck.

Consequently Bismarck fired after Prinz Eugen did.

By the way, F.O. Busch stated that Jasper was very fast on opening fire after Brinkmann order ... so on Prinz Eugen they have been faster than Lindemann / Schneider, ... once the JD ( Jot Dora ) flag was hoisted on Bismarck mainmast soon after Adm Lutjens order to open fire when ready to both warships.

Bye Antonio :D
Fine, good point, but why is NH 69722 showing Bismarck's first salvo and not - let's say - the second or third?
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)

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Re: why did lutjens break radio silence

Post by Herr Nilsson » Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:47 am

Dave Saxton wrote:
Herr Nilsson wrote:
@Dave

In the comprehensive correspondence after Rheinübung it was discussed by the SKL, what devices could have been used by the British for shadowing at extreme range (ASDIC, radar, detection of a powered VHF-transmitter and detection of German radar). They even discussed, why it was unlikely the British used radar. They also seemed to be sure that Bismarck used her own radar to detect the shadowing forces on May 25th. A passive radar detection isn't even considered in this context. I assure you, it's unlikely that Bismarck had a radar detection device.

I have thought about the possibility that Luetjens knew there were two different radars being used by the enemy, and he got his mistaken 35km effective range of enemy radar, from onboard B-dienst intercepts of the enemy's shadow reports. On the other hand Group West seemed to assume that their custom built detector was embarked. We don't know for sure one way or the other.
SKL didn't know very much about British radar. They got a report from the navy commander channel coast on May 22th 1941 about 15 new radar devices on the English channel operating at 1.46-1.54 m wavelength. They also knew a picture of King George V in LIFE magazine showing a device that could be radar. They assumed that this device aboard KGV was possibly operating at the same wavelength as the devices from the channel coast. I think it's unlikely that Lütjens and Group West knew more than SKL. I agree that the 35 km effective range was a false conclusion because of the shadow reports.

IMHO Group West just hoped that the British wavelength was near the German wavelength and could possibly be detected. Remember, Group West's message that a determination of the British radar frequency would be valuable was not verbalized as an order. In case of a radar detector aboard Bismarck I would expect a message like: Determine British radar frequency. Furthermore Group West's message was sent hours before Lütjens long radio message. Lütjens had enough time to react, but he didn't.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)

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Re: why did lutjens break radio silence

Post by Dave Saxton » Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:55 pm

Herr Nilsson wrote:..They (SKL) also seemed to be sure that Bismarck used her own radar to detect the shadowing forces on May 25th...

Post war commentary by Schmalenbach pointed out that the flagship informed Prinz Eugen about contact with possible patrol cruisers well before they were observed visually.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.

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Re: why did lutjens break radio silence

Post by Herr Nilsson » Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:38 pm

Well, Brinkmann writes, that Bismarck's EM II didn't clarify the situation on May 23rd in the evening. My comment was about the supposed shadowing forces on 25th in the morning.
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Marc

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Re: why did lutjens break radio silence

Post by Dave Saxton » Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:52 pm

Herr Nilsson wrote:Well, Brinkmann writes, that Bismarck's EM II didn't clarify the situation on May 23rd in the evening. My comment was about the supposed shadowing forces on 25th in the morning.
Yes, my mistake. I misread the date.

I think the SKL was correct that Bismarck used its radars to keep track of the shadowers early on the 25th prior to and during its breaking contact, and the Baron alludes to this. However, this cannot be the case when Luetjens sent the messages several hours later.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.

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Re: why did lutjens break radio silence

Post by Paul L » Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:20 am

B-Dienst reportedly warned Lutjens to avoid R/F, not to transmit any message longer than '3 characters'. does anyone know if 'characters' means words or just letters?
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Re: why did lutjens break radio silence

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sat Jun 18, 2016 12:50 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

you asked :
Fine, good point, but why is NH 69722 showing Bismarck's first salvo and not - let's say - the second or third?
If you look at the photo you will notice only 3 fired cartridges by Prinz Eugen on her main deck on the left of the photo, this means that we are surely looking at the Prinz Eugen first salvo, and since Prinz Eugen fired almost immediately after the flag JD on Bismarck main mast, ... from the timing stand point we are at the fisrt salvo for Bismarck too.

In addition , we do not see any other smoke left behind Bismarck while firing her salvo, ... so it is confirmed it is her first one too ...

Last but not least .... also on F.O. Busch 1943 book, ... he captioned this photo being : " Bismarck erste salvo ".

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: why did lutjens break radio silence

Post by Herr Nilsson » Sat Jun 18, 2016 3:01 pm

Well, but all witnesses confirm Bismarck fired before Prinz Eugen...including Brinkmann and F.O. Busch.
Regards

Marc

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Re: why did lutjens break radio silence

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:41 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

I see, ... but at least in case of Fritz Otto Busch , ... he had a different opinion on 1943 captioning that photo as you can read yourself.
It is not a surprise for me what you state, ... since I know F.O. Busch often changed his opinions after the 1943 book.
Busch_caption_1943.jpg
Busch_caption_1943.jpg (62.23 KiB) Viewed 1986 times
Just compare on 2 different photos showing Bismarck firing how it looks behind her on the same morning, when the Bismarck had fired a previous salvo :
BA-146-1990-061-27.jpg
BA-146-1990-061-27.jpg (75.8 KiB) Viewed 1986 times
... and compare it with the Nh 69722 or BA-1968-015-24 where you can verify there is only one salvo smoke just being fired by Bsimarck close to her, ... the horizon behind her is clear all around.
Nh_69722_BA-146-1968-015-24.jpg
Nh_69722_BA-146-1968-015-24.jpg (65.49 KiB) Viewed 1986 times
I do not recall now the Brinkmann statement, ... but the photo is self explanatory to me, ... and it was correctly captioned also by PK Lagemann himself for the Bundesarchive file as I can read.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: why did lutjens break radio silence

Post by Herr Nilsson » Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:59 pm

I recommend you to read PG's war diary and F.O. Busch's 1943 edition.
Regards

Marc

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Re: why did lutjens break radio silence

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sat Jun 18, 2016 10:14 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

Marc, if you can be so kind to show me the statements you refer to about Brinkmann ... it will save me some research time, ... and I will thank you, ... since on the PG KTB at the open fire I have not find anything that refers to the above ... :think:
PG_KTB_open_fire_DS_01.jpg
PG_KTB_open_fire_DS_01.jpg (85.61 KiB) Viewed 1974 times
I think I have got what you refer to about F.O. Busch contradicting himself on the photo caption with his own book text :
“ ‘Bismarck’ has hoisted Jot Dora [permission to fire]!
‘Bismarck’ has opened fire!” the NCO cries out.
“Order from the Commander: permission to fire!”
It is now 04:45 local time as our first salvo is fired against the opponent one second after the Commander’s order.
They fall far to the right.
One is severely startled, if one has never experienced this quake of the entire foretop battle station which sways and shakes for seconds.
Below in the conning stand the commander smiles at the navigation officer : “The A.O. has never fired so fast after ‘permission to fire’!”
Between the 2 statements by F.O. Busch, ... I take the photo evidence and caption of course ... :wink:

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: why did lutjens break radio silence

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:40 am

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

I think I have found the statement by Brinkmann you refer to :
Brinkmann_PG_Open_Fire_DS.jpg
Brinkmann_PG_Open_Fire_DS.jpg (60.34 KiB) Viewed 1948 times
Well, ... once again the photo shows a different situation ... just like F.O. Bush, while recalling the events Brinkmann may have sincerely thought that Bismarck fired before Prinz Eugen ,.. but the photo shows us it was not true, ... just a matter of few seconds ... but Prinz Eugen fired before the Bismarck first salvo ... as we can all easily see on the photo NH 69722.

I would not under estimate that both Busch as well as PK Lagemann properly captioned that photo being the Bismarck first salvo fired ... and we can see it is the first one ... since no smoke is left behind Bismarck .... but consequently Prinz Eugen fired before Bismarck ... and both her smoke and her cartridges are there to prove it.

Just my opinion of course ... but the photo evidence is there supporting me ... :think:

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: why did lutjens break radio silence

Post by Herr Nilsson » Sun Jun 19, 2016 10:29 am

Antonio Bonomi wrote: ...I would not under estimate that both Busch as well as PK Lagemann properly captioned that photo being the Bismarck first salvo fired ... and we can see it is the first one ...
:ok:
Fine, nice to see you rely on Busch. I'm sure you're relying on his captions in regard of the following pictures as well:

Image

Caption Busch:
Last granade of the English battlecruiser....

Image

Caption Busch:
While Bismarck is firing salvo by salvo, shells from Hood are falling near Prinz Eugen.


Antonio Bonomi wrote: ... and both her smoke and her cartridges are there to prove it.
oh yes, the smoke... :angel:

...by the way I didn't know Prinz Eugen had triple turrets....you learn something new every day!
Regards

Marc

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Re: why did lutjens break radio silence

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sun Jun 19, 2016 12:02 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,


Marc, ... Fritz Otto Busch was there with Jasper, ... I rely on him as well as on everybody else, ... some I trust more, ... given what I realized about this battle, ... some I rely less.

On both sides we have good ones and ... less good ones.

Brinkmann is not for sure within the best ones ...

Since I see you do not like much F.O. Busch, ... well let me point out to you that even PK Josef Lagemann on board the Prinz Eugen and taking that photo properly captioned it being the first salvo fired by the Bismarck.

YES, ... the salvo smoke ... tells a story, ... on many photos.

You know like I do that Prinz Eugen had 2 twin 203 mm turrets, ... but the fired cartridges we see on the Prinz Eugen main deck are only 3 and not 4 as it should be if all 4 aft main guns fired correctly. It can be that one cartridge was close to the C turret barbette and it is not visible on the photo, ... or that one gun did not fire on the first salvo from the aft main guns.

I am sure you know well that given the main turret rotation and the PG course all 4 used cartridges of C+D turrets were supposed to fall on the main deck ... so no need for a triple turret like you seem to suggest .... it was enough 2 twin ... :wink:

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: why did lutjens break radio silence

Post by paul.mercer » Sun Jun 19, 2016 3:08 pm

[quote="Antonio Bonomi"]Hello everybody,

@ Tommy303,

I agree with your latest statements about Adm Lutjens vs Kpt Lindemann open fire delay analysis, ... not to forget that once the JD flags were hoisted after Adm Lutjens order to do it, ... it was Prinz Eugen the first ship to open fire, .... not Bismarck, ... so what was Lindemann waiting for at that point ?

Gentlemen,
I'm not sure if this is a myth, but was Lindemannn not heard to say "I will not have my ship shot from under my arse"? If so then it must have been Lutjens who hesitated in opening fire.I have been told that in a sea battle, the Admiral controls the battle but the Captain controls the ship, whether this is true I'm not sure.

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