Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Northcape wrote "Can you spot the contradiction?"
No, I can't. I have NOT given any judgment on Leach behavior in the post that you have not read carefully. :negative:

Someone else is trying to celebrate his professionalism, misusing both this thread and the crew preparation as excuse. I would greatly appreciate to discuss here the real preparation level of ALL the ships involved based on facts and the effect of their preparation on the firing based on results.

However, if someone else insists......I can repeat here what I think as a soldier and what I have already said in other threads where the topic has been debated already..... :stop:

Bye, Alberto
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by alecsandros »

... Returning back to the original title of the thread,
I would like to make a reminder about Adm. Luetjens's view of the mission: he spoke with Raeder about the need to concentrate the entire German heavy fleet into one single "punch". Bismarck, Tirpitz, Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, operating together, so as to present a credible and plausible attack force versus a potential enemy response.

So he wanted to wait until Tirpitz was operational and S/G repaired. He probably made plans for Sept/Oct 1941 (as that was the earliest date in which all ships could be available, from the best intel available on April 1941)

How would that work out ? Could all 4 ships actualy be put together ?
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

summarizing what I have read above, it seems clear to me that the 2 statements I have proposed taken form available books :
1) Bismarck : " ... a warship on the peek of her efficiency ... "

2) Prince of Wales : " ... a non fully worked out warship, suffering for lack of training and teething problems ... "
are NOT correct the way they have been always proposed for many years until today even on latest TV documentaries.

Bismarck was not at the peek of her efficiency, ... was not fully worked out and lacked training too.

Prince of Wales was not fully worked out as well, surely lacked training too, ... but thanking 7 weeks of intensive gunnery training day and night reached a level of gunnery efficiency that enabled her performances at Denmark Strait.

This has to be entirely recognized to Capt John Catteral Leach initiative and competences.

Unfortunately this intensive training could not fix the design structural problems of the quadruple turrets, but we know about it, since also KGV suffered about it too on May 27th, ... despite being more worked out than PoW by the Vikers-Armstrong technicians.

Moving back to the thread subject, I agree with Alecsandros, and you can read and see the data supporting it on my first 2 books about the Tirpitz :

http://bismarck-tirpitz.com/

Now also on Amazon.com :

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss? ... mi+tirpitz

But still in September 1941 also Tirpitz was not considered fully worked out by Kpt zur See Karl Topp, and in fact if you read Leonce Peillard book " Sink the Tirpitz ", still on February 1942, while already in Norway, Kpt Topp was considering his warship not fully worked out yet.

Last but not least : what Bismarck, Tirpitz, Scharnhorst and Gnesienau can do together in the Atlantic ?

Nothing more than some commerce raiding without an aircaft carrier and without a good agreement with the Luftwaffe covering and protecting them while in Brest or Saint Nazaire dock, being bombed while in port as we saw occurred to Scharnhorst and Gneisenau.

Royal Navy reaction ? To me they were going to send the whole Home Fleet against them blocking Brest or engaging them on the open ocean and again without the air coverege by an aircraft carrier, ... we can easily imagine what was going to be the final result of the battle.

Of course the above is just my personal opinion .... of the " what if " scenario.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by dunmunro »

All ships will continually suffer from minor breakdowns even those considered fully efficient. The statement in Bismarck's war diary is very clear that Bismarck was considered fully ready and equal in training to ships worked up pre-war.
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by wadinga »

All,

Sorry that my exposure of the hidden motive behind the suggestion of some kind of parity in readiness between PoW and Bismarck has created so much heat. I thought by referring to Kapitan Lindemann's actual logged observations it would be perfectly clear Bismarck was as ready as she could be and it took 8 months.The only reason I said I couldn't be bothered to type any more is that the KTB I have is a pdf locked copy from which you cannot cut and paste :D. So I had to retype bits which is irksome. Childish nonsense indeed Harrumph! :D

Duncan- thanks for kindly including the extensive quote in which Lindemann reflects proudly and his calm feelings on the successful conclusion of his 8 month work-up, and his tough disappointment in not being ordered to head off into combat immediately.

So rather than
he most certainly was pressured into the mission
he says himself he was disappointed not to be going a month earlier.

Yes it would have been so lovely if that nasty Flying Officer Campbell VC and equally heroic crewmen Hillman, Mullis and Scott hadn't given their lives to torpedo the Gneisenau, and the rotten RAF hadn't bombed her in dry dock subsequently. It was just very bad luck that after only a 17,800 mile cruise Scharnhorst's superbly engineered power plant was worn out requiring months of repairs.

If only, if only, the Tirpitz could have magically been ready to join in with less than 8 months work-up. But it wasn't.

Indeed wouldn't it have been wonderful if the whole Uber-task force had managed to get to sea altogether and slaughter the helpless convoys and their escorts. Tens of merchant ships and their democracy sustaining cargoes sinking under a blazing inferno of Teutonic firepower........... Ineffectual escorts throwing away their lives in hopeless charges against an irresistible force. The USA cutting off its aid since it was just being sunk in the Atlantic and starving the 8th Army of the resources it needed to throw back the Afrika Korps.

Except it never happened, which is why this thread belongs in the "might have been" category instead of one about real things that really happened in the Real World.

It would be statistically invalid (or very biased indeed) to consider only
drawn from this very specific and very short confrontation only
which is why the success of Renown's old 15" against the Twins and Warspite's against Guilio Cesare and Hood's against Provence and Rodney's 16" against Bismarck should be taken into account.

If the best in excuses that can extracted from the KTB (after extensive study) as to why Bismarck shouldn't have gone out was one of the cranes didn't work or some supplies (tropical kit I believe) were missing well many would think these are not valid reasons for not going to sea.

If Bismarck's temporary rudder failure is evidence she wasn't ready, that is a bigger subject. German naval engineering was very advanced and extremely complex. Sometimes too advanced and too complex.As Cag has observed German warships spent most of their time tied up in harbour waiting to make an attack, and therefore their equipment and crews were infrequently stressed by actual operations at sea. That’s gaining experience. I have worked at sea in complex ships and I know gear breaks down all the time. Prinz Eugen's engineering plant needed extensive repairs after the mission.

If Bismarck survivors don't think they had the right gear or enough AA training or practice to knock down 90 knot canvas Swordfish, well so what, that’s tough. We have established a large part of PoW's crew had never served in a warship before either. PoW went out and fought the Luftwaffe and Regia Aeronautica to get supplies through the Mediterranean after the Bismarck chase, but the Japanese still sank her. Isn't the excuse of the loser always that they didn't have the right equipment or enough training? The KTB says Bismarck’s AA batteries were involved in the defence of Hamburg. The AA crews could have got their experience in E Boats or Flakships which were out fighting while Bismarck was sitting around in the ice.

Trying to retrospectively suggest that because Tirpitz took far longer to work up than Bismarck proves Lindemann is incorrect in his assessment is not valid. After the poor results of the Twins mission and the failure of Bismarck's, Kriegsmarine resources were being diverted to U-boats and other areas that might actually win in the Battle of the Atlantic or to other forces in North Africa or Russia. Tirpitz was already effectively demoted to coast defence ship that continued to absorb huge resources for very little return during the rest of her existence.

It is abundantly clear from her Captain's own signed writings that Bismarck was fully ready for war service, the day after PoW got Y turret working acceptably for the very first time.

All the best

wadinga
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

Wadinga wrote :
... the day after PoW got Y turret working acceptably for the very first time.
YES, that is true but after, ... like no other battleship before or after her, ... the HMS Prince of Wales went into 7 weeks of intensive gunnery training, ... and that made a huge difference, ... on a badly designed quadruple turret.

Bismarck gunnery training was not even a half of that ... :wink:

But you know, she had reliable turrets by design like the Tirpitz, so much less work needed, and no excuses needed after her performances.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by dunmunro »

Antonio Bonomi wrote:Hello everybody,

Wadinga wrote :
... the day after PoW got Y turret working acceptably for the very first time.
YES, that is true but after, ... like no other battleship before or after her, ... the HMS Prince of Wales went into 7 weeks of intensive gunnery training, ... and that made a huge difference, ... on a badly designed quadruple turret.

Bismarck gunnery training was not even a half of that ... :wink:

But you know, she had reliable turrets by design like the Tirpitz, so much less work needed, and no excuses needed after her performances.

Bye Antonio :D
Bismarck's gunners weren't sitting around doing nothing from the time Lindemann declared her to be fully worked up. They were still training intensively.
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by wadinga »

Hi Duncan,

Of course you are correct, Bismarck had all the time PoW had, plus all the additional time before. Of course Brooke's "seven weeks" starts on arrival in Scapa at the end of March when Y turret doesn't even work until April 26th. As Antonio has kindly recorded
Gunnery exercises were severely curtailed due to the continuing problems with the quadruple 14in turrets.
Further she still had major problems with her main armament and 100 Vickers Armstrong staff were embarked attempting to fix the problems
In fact

Radar officer Paddon says "we had one main armament shoot".

And carried out full power trials
May 8th - Carried out Full Power Trials.
Bismarck had full power available at the beginning of November 1940

Bismarck's heavy AA outfit was in action against British aircraft on the 15-16th September 1940 and the light AA the previous month.

All the best

wadinga
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by alecsandros »

wadinga wrote: I thought by referring to Kapitan Lindemann's actual logged observations it would be perfectly clear Bismarck was as ready as she could be and it took 8 months.


"The state of training that has been reached, compares favorably with that of a capital ship’s
readiness for a full [scale] battle inspection in the good years of peacetime. Although the crew,
with few exceptions, completely lacks real combat experience, I have the calm feeling that all
forthcoming combat demands will be readily dealt with"

April 16-30 - ... It became treadfully clear that no clear orders were being issued by the Command for the anticipated deployment, or they were so late that it was impossible to procure the missing equipment and supplies through normal channels

May 14th - Combat readiness compromised... renewed failure in port crane[/b]... the repeated problems with this crane have been reported several times before.

May 23rd - starboard rudder failure on Bismarck... Prinz Eugen prevents further closing-in by hard rudder 40*...
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by alecsandros »

wadinga wrote:

Bismarck's heavy AA outfit was in action against British aircraft on the 15-16th September 1940 and the light AA the previous month.

All the best

wadinga
... In Dec 1940 / Jan / Fev 1941, Bismarck was still fitting out in Hamburg. Then she spent 2 more weeks in Hamburg to repair damage to her air ducts leading to machinery.
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by alecsandros »

Antonio Bonomi wrote:
Last but not least : what Bismarck, Tirpitz, Scharnhorst and Gnesienau can do together in the Atlantic ?

Nothing more than some commerce raiding without an aircaft carrier and without a good agreement with the Luftwaffe covering and protecting them while in Brest or Saint Nazaire dock, being bombed while in port as we saw occurred to Scharnhorst and Gneisenau.
... Still 4 fast capital ships would be a severe problem for the Royal Navy to deal with in late 1941/early 1942.

AFAIK, available carriers were few, and they did not have large numbers of torpdo-bombers on board.

A possible rendez-vous by TZ/BS with SH/GS in the Mid-Atlantic would be disastruos for the British, that would be forced to scatter several convoys and create several hunter-killer groups to destroy the enemy.
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Herr Nilsson »

@ Alecsandros

It's interesting how you're interpreting the statements of Lindemann totally different as they were meant.

The emphasis for a native speaker is:
"The state of training that has been reached, compares favorably with that of a capital ship’s
readiness for a full [scale]battle inspection in the good years of peacetime
. Although the crew,
with few exceptions, completely lacks real combat experience, I have the calm feeling that all
forthcoming combat demands will be readily dealt with
"
alecsandros wrote:
April 16-30 - ... It became treadfully clear that no clear orders were being issued by the Command for the anticipated deployment, or they were so late that it was impossible to procure the missing equipment and supplies through normal channels


You omit that the missing equipment and supplies were for the tropics and prize crews and were procured in the end.
alecsandros wrote:
May 14th - Combat readiness compromised... renewed failure in port crane[/b]... the repeated problems with this crane have been reported several times before.


Combat readiness can't be compromised without combat readiness.

May 23rd - starboard rudder failure on Bismarck... Prinz Eugen prevents further closing-in by hard rudder 40*...


So what?

However, the crucial sentence is from April 28th:

This feeling is strengthened by the fact that the combat value of this ship in connection with the achieved state of training awakes such great confidence in every man that - for the first time in a long time – we can feel at least up to any opponent.
Regards

Marc

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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by alecsandros »

So Marc,
To make things clear,
You consider that the state of facts pertaining to Bismarck's crew and hardware, after 3 months of sea-training, was of such quality as to ensure a correct and complete deployment in the Atlantic ?
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Cag »

Hi All,
Just a quick note to clarify things, PoW did not have 7 weeks of uninterupted intense gunnery exercises, I don't really understand where this figure has come from? If you request her ships logs from the National Archives in Kew (Around thirty pounds per log) you will see just how little time was spent on main gunnery exercises, during her working up period from the end of March to the 24th May 1941 she was conducting many exercises, some left over from construction and some left over from class exercises not carried out by KG V. They consisted of main engine runs, DG runs, emergency steering runs and change over to steam from electrical steering exercises, abandon ship exercises RDF exercises, etc etc etc. I think I have previously posted the exact figure of armament exercises totted up from going through the logs and IIRC main armament was around 8 hrs in two months! I realise there are a number viewpoints and underlying arguments and theories that are being pushed by all sides (Of which I would rather not get involved) and I must agree with Alberto that whatever is used to press these arguments please at least let them be based on fact.
As always with the greatest of respect
Cag.
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Herr Nilsson »

alecsandros wrote:So Marc,
To make things clear,
You consider that the state of facts pertaining to Bismarck's crew and hardware, after 3 months of sea-training, was of such quality as to ensure a correct and complete deployment in the Atlantic ?
My opinion is irrelevant, but if Lindemann says the ship is combat ready and if he can afford the luxury to slow down even to normal duty, it seems to me the ship was combat ready. There was certainly room for improvement, but that's always like that.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
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