Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

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RF
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by RF »

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
.......apply the same concept to the RN too and to Capt.Leach on PoW at DS, just after Hood exploded.... :think:
Bye, Alberto
Applying the concept has to be taken as a calculated risk with regard to outcomes. Rheinubung with only two ships was a calculated risk worth the Germans taking.
Disengaging POW immediately Hood sank was a calculated risk in the context of Leach's stated thinking. Whether that thinking was right or wrong will of course be endlessly debated. I think Leach called it right, even if Bismarck did reach Brest.
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

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Cancel duplicated post.
Last edited by RF on Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

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Cancel duplicated post.
Last edited by RF on Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

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[
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

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Cancel duplicated posts.
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

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Sorry about this it appears that my last post was submitted five times instead of once.....
Last edited by RF on Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Francis Marliere »

Gentlemen,

I have no opinion and little interest in the current discussion, and just want to comment one of our friend's argument :
alecsandros wrote:German wargaming prior to the mission showed Bismarck to be discovered each and every time, before passing into the open ocean. 20 hours of daylight gives you that.
With respect to Alecs, I don't think that is a valid argument. As a naval wargamer, I do know that it is very difficult, if not almost impossible, to simulate this kind of situation. IMHO the results of the wargames speak more about the limitations and the biases of the rules and participants than the real world situation.
If you want to use German wargaming as an argument, I am afraid that you should dig in the details of the wargaming scessions : what are the rules for detection ? what was the visibility in the scenario ? what were the forces available for the British team ? what was the scale of the map(s) ? what kind of intelligence did the British have ? What did the 'players' know of British doctrine ? and so on ...

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Francis Marliere
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Herr Nilsson »

alecsandros wrote:
Herr Nilsson wrote::think: It dawns on me that you've never read any other German war diary or report. Right?

Well, I did read several others... All English translations.
But what is the value of this information pertaining to this topic ?
Following your logic most German warships should have never left port.
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by alecsandros »

Herr Nilsson wrote:
Following your logic most German warships should have never left port.
Relevant examples ?
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Herr Nilsson »

Read Gneisenau's artillery report after Operation Berlin, read Scharnhorst's war diary.
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by alecsandros »

Herr Nilsson wrote:Read Gneisenau's artillery report after Operation Berlin, read Scharnhorst's war diary.
Haven't read Scharnhorst's war diary, but I see your point.
You can add Prinz Eugen's warlog to the list, which mentiones both training and materiel problems during Rheinubung.

However, none of those situations proves that Bismarck was at "peak efficiency" on May 24th...
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

RF wrote: "......Whether that thinking was right or wrong will of course be endlessly debated. I think Leach called it right, even if Bismarck did reach Brest."
Hi,
I do agree only with your first sentence above. :wink:

Respectful for your opinion, I personally think Leach called it right only with hindsight, while he was wrong at the very time his decision was taken. Had Bismarck reached Brest, or worse, started her raider mission, I would guess that the consequences for him (and for Wake-Walker) would have been quite tough......

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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Cag »

Hi All,
Hi Alberto, hypothetically, if Leach had not turned away, what outcome do you think would have occurred? Would PoW have recieved further damage or inflicted further damage? If damaged further and put out of action would the cruisers have lost Bismarck earlier and should Luetjens have continued the battle?
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

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Alberto Virtuani wrote: Had Bismarck reached Brest, or worse, started her raider mission, I would guess that the consequences for him (and for Wake-Walker) would have been quite tough......
Bye, Alberto
In the summer of 1941, yes.

But the Germans would very quickly find that having Bismarck in Brest or St Nazaire would be a poisoned chalice, far more so than having simply Scharnhorst, Gneisenau and Prinz Eugen there. Churchill would have diverted the whole of Bomber Command to the destruction of these ships, I can imagine the commando raid on St Nazaire being brought forward and quite possibly be carried out with Bismarck inside the dry dock.
At that time German ships were safer out on the high seas (unless they were caught by radar equipped ships) than being in port, especially a port close to British bases.

A court martial in late 1941 would have been interesting, as by that time the problems would be with the Germans and the defence for Leach and Wake-Walker would be accumulating evidence to suggest that the outcome was not completely detrimental.
How far Bismarck remains a threat to Britain would be debateable, Ghurchill would be obsessed with both Bismarck and Tirpitz, but the reality, as any chess player can appreciate, is that a threat is often more dangerous than its implementation.

I suspect also that Churchill would have based some battleships at Plymouth, possibly at Falmouth, with the idea of catching the German ships in Biscay if they tried to break out. That makes the Channel Dash operation by the Germans very interesting and tips the scales towards the RN.
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

@Cag:
Hi Mr.Cag,
what if scenarios are always highly hypothetical. IMHO PoW (a very well armored battleship) would have been further damaged, even severely, possibly (not very likely) sunk, while in the meantime delivering other damages to Bismarck, as she had already done.

In any case, as I have already written in many other threads, the duty of Capt.Leach was to fight until he was sure that Bismarck was so damaged that she could not continue her raider mission, regardless of his own damage, and at least until the main armament was in action in an effective way and his ship was able to continue the engagement.
Only once sure that Bismarck was actually damaged, he could then have decided whether to continue the fight to the death or to disengage and wait for help from the Home Fleet to sink her. Instead, he turned away with a still able to fight battleship whose damages were "superficial", without even knowing that he had hit the Bismarck....

Of course, with hindsight, his decision was at the end the right one, no doubts. He saved many lives and his ship.


@RF,
Hi,
your considerations are all correct and very wise and I tend to agree with all your analysis. However this was not the British government and the RN feeling in May 1941. For sure neither Leach at 6:01 on May 41, nor Wake-Walker during the same day were the ones who could debate and establish which menace was going to represent the Bismarck in Brest, or, worse case, free in Atlantic as you correctly say.


Bye, Alberto
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