Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

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alecsandros
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by alecsandros »

RF wrote:
Thorsten Wahl wrote:
1) Bismarck : " ... a warship on the peek of her efficiency ... "
This statement has to be refused.
.
This does need qualification - Bismarck was far better prepared than was POW for battle.
Who says ?
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wadinga
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by wadinga »

All,

Lindemann himself records in the KTB page 78 end of March saying artillery "personnel's performance not yet 100%, it was quite satisfactory." He had been hoping to get a further 2 months shakedown but is not pertubed it will be reduced to one month. In actual fact it turns out to be nearly two months anyway. There are various gripes about difficulties during the work up, but considering PoW had only just "completed" having just left Rosyth and it would be another months before her guns were ready to fire
27th April - It was on this day that the last of her three turrets was accepted from Vickers Armstrong and practice drills with all her armament could commence.
Thanks Cag :wink: it is clear she was several months behind Bismarck in preparation. Paddon says she sailed from Birkenhead to avoid further damage in bombing raids with 50 civilian "Maties" working on the ship, with probably hundreds of individual tasks half completed needing restarting in a different dockyard, hundreds of miles away

This is just another attempt to minimise the entirely logical and reasonable factors influencing Leach's very professional decision to temporarily turn away from a vastly better-prepared opponent who had had a much longer working up period. The accepted view that Bismarck was well prepared and PoW was not, is held because it is true.

All the best

wadinga
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Dave Saxton
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Dave Saxton »

I just a viewed a photo of Bismarck were it has the aft rangefinder with the radar antenna installed during January 1941, assuming the date is correct. But my mid March it had been removed.

Photos show Tirpitz with none of the three main rangefinders (it has the ones in the turrets of course, or at least the housing for them). The starboard wobble kopf is there. This as late as mid March 1941. Tirpitz has the conning tower range finder and the foretop range finders with radars during the Hitler visit in early May. It does not have the aft installation. This is the same condition as when it failed the initial gunnery trials about six weeks later.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Dave Saxton »

wadinga wrote:
Leach's very professional decision to temporarily turn away from a vastly better-prepared opponent who had had a much longer working up period. The accepted view that Bismarck was well prepared and PoW was not, is held because it is true.

All the best

wadinga

I agree that Bismarck was probably better prepared than POW, but but how much?

In my opinion Leach did the right thing given the circumstances.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by alecsandros »

Dave Saxton wrote:
wadinga wrote:
Leach's very professional decision to temporarily turn away from a vastly better-prepared opponent who had had a much longer working up period. The accepted view that Bismarck was well prepared and PoW was not, is held because it is true.

All the best

wadinga

I agree that Bismarck was probably better prepared than POW, but but how much?

In my opinion Leach did the right thing given the circumstances.
... Probably about 2 to 3 months more prepared.

Both crews were GREEN, but Prince of Wales's crew was GREEN-er.

In terms of technical completedness, both shps were seriously defficient at the time of their battle, but in different areas (Bismarck suffered rudder and crane failures, did not have all AAA domes, AVKS reported troubles in her electrical and precision-firing mechanisms, did not have correct supplies on board, etc. Prince of Wales had trouble with her main turrets, radars, etc.)
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Hello everybody and Happy New Year,

I will try not to be dragged again into the discussion regarding this kind of sentence:
".....Leach's very professional (???) decision to temporarily (???) turn away from a vastly better-prepared (???) opponent who had had a much longer working up period (???)......."
because you all know very well that, even accepting the debatable points that I have highlighted, I'm absolutely convinced that Leach's decision was very wrong from a military viewpoint, and right only with hindsight, for the reasons we have discussed already and also because this is not the right thread to re-open such a debate.

I think it is very interesting to analyze the completion status of both ships and to get to a possible conclusion, even if, for the time being, I'm still not able to compare apples with apples (e.g. hours of gunnery trainings performed, number and duration of gunnery exercises performed with completed ship, number of shots fired, results of these shootings, tests on radars and FC equipment and related results, etc.), but I would like to thank all the knowledgeable members who provided info here, especially Dave for the very interesting post on the Bismarck and Tirpitz dates for FC systems installation.



However, the battle on May 24 clearly showed 2 modern, green(/greener) ships (BS and PoW) firing both very well, hitting the enemy in 3 to 4 minutes from open fire, being quite efficient in term of precision and salvoes rate as opposed to an old, very well trained ship (Hood) that fired very badly, firing very few total salvoes (in terms of rate of fire, accordingly to witnesses), outputting incomplete salvoes (aft turrets firing sporadically, again accordingly to witnesses), and never hitting the enemy (even forgetting the target mistake....).

Thus, my conclusion, drawn from this very specific and very short confrontation only, is just that, in this engagement, from a pure gunnery viewpoint, it was much better to risk to use a modern battleship, with modern guns and FC, even if not yet fully trained, than to deploy a very well trained and reliable but obsolete ship, with guns designed 25 years before.......

Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by wadinga »

Hello Alberto,

You're absolutely right, my observation does need modification:

This is just another highly biased attempt to minimise the entirely logical and reasonable factors influencing Leach's very professional decision........... :cool:

I believe we have all established Tirpitz would have contributed nothing to the mission, and being stuck in Norway or somewhere else remote from Home dockyards would just delay her entry into effective service.

Here is Lindemann again from the KTB 28th April one day after PoW actually got Y turret working:

"Ship is personnel-wise and material-wise fully ready for action, and provisioned for 3 months. Herewith, the first chapter in the ship's life since the commissioning 24th August 1940, is successfully completed. The goal was reached after 8 months, being over the target date by only 14 days."

I can't be bothered to type any more but visit the KTB for the full details of just how ready Bismarck was. Totally. And then they had a further month of training. In high tech vessels like state of the art warships there are bits and pieces that need sorting. That is normal and a continous process.

PoW arrived in Rosyth as a single screw vessel, two on deck and another shut down due to hot bearings, with 50 Cammell-Laird and Armstrong-Whitworth men aboard having been dragged out of Birkenhead to avoid bomb damage. Bismarck has been sailing about at full speed in the Gulf of Danzig in September and October 1940.

Rodney did pretty well with 20 year old guns and firecontrol in smashing up Bismarck when it came to it. Warspite did very well in hitting at the max range (shared with Scharnhorst I know, I know) with very similar equipment to Hood. :angel:

All the best

wadinga
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by alecsandros »

wadinga wrote:
I can't be bothered to type any more but visit the KTB for the full details of just how ready Bismarck was. Totally. And then they had a further month of training. In high tech vessels like state of the art warships there are bits and pieces that need sorting. That is normal and a continous process.
Childish non-sense.

You realy should re-read the KTB. It seems you missed a lot.
Last edited by alecsandros on Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by alecsandros »

I woudl like to see some sort of ban or kick working on the forum... Maybe Jose can help ?

It gets extremely boring and tiresome when someone simply refuses to read (and openly acknoledges that !) just to keep his previous made-up prejudice about some things/ships/situations.

It's realy a waste of space and time...

Best of luck,
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by dunmunro »

C'mon lets keep cool.

Here's the entire text of the page in question:
materiell voll einsatzbereit und für 3 Monate ausgerüstet".
Hiermit ist der erste Lebensabschnitt des Schiffes seit der Indienststellung an 24.8.40 mit
Erfolg abgeschlossen. Das Ziel ist in 8 Monaten erreicht worden unter nur 14 tägiger
Überschreitung gegenüber den ursprünglichen Absichten (Ostern), bedingt durch die 6 wöchige
infolge Sperrung des K.W.- Kanals und Eislage erzwungene Wartezeit in Hamburg (24.1. -
6.3.41.).
Die Besatzung kann auf dieses Ergebnis stolz sein. Es war nur erreichbar, weil der überall
bestehende Wunsch, möglichst bald an den Feind zu kommen, es mir bedenkenlos erlaubte,
übernormale Ansprüche // [1)] an die Besatzung zu stellen, und weil das Schiff und seine
technischen Einrichtungen trotz harter Beanspruchung und nur sehr spärlicher Hafenliegezeit
von größeren Störungen und Schäden [2)] verschont geblieben ist.
Der erreichte Ausbildungsstand entspricht vergleichsweise dem eines großen Schiffes zur
Hauptgefechtsbesichtigung in den guten Friedensjahren. Wenn der Besatzung auch eigentliche
Kriegserfahrungen mit geringen Ausnahmen noch völlig fehlen, so habe ich doch das
beruhigende Gefühl, mit diesem Schiff allen bevorstehenden Kriegsaufgaben gerecht werden
zu können. Dieses Gefühl wird bestärkt dadurch, daß in Verbindung mit dem erreichten
Ausbildungsstand der materielle Kampfwert dieses Schiffes ein so großes Zutrauen bei
jedermann erweckt, daß wir uns - zum ersten Male seit langer Zeit - jedem Gegner gegenüber
zum mindesten gewachsen fühlen können. Dieses Gefühl wird bestärkt dadurch, daß in
Verbindung mit dem erreichten Ausbildungsstand der materielle Kampfwert dieses Schiffes ein
so großes Zutrauen bei jedermann erweckt, daß wir uns - zum ersten Male seit langer Zeit -
jedem Gegner gegenüber zum mindesten gewachsen fühlen können.
Die Verzögerung unseres Einsatzes, deren ungefährer Zeitpunkt der Besatzung selbstredend
nicht verborgen bleiben konnte, ist darum für alle Beteiligten eine harte Enttäuschung.
Ich werde die Wartezeit in der bisherigen Weise zur weiteren Vervollkommnung der Ausbildung
benutzen, dabei jedoch der Besatzung etwas mehr Ruhe gönnen, und beabsichtige, daneben
auch wieder etwas mehr Zeit für Divisionsdienst und äußere Instandsetzung des Schiffes zu
geben, welche Dienstzweige in den letzten Wochen erklärlicherweise sehr stark zurücktreten
mußten. Außerdem werde ich in jeder Woche die verbrauchten Bestände auf 3-Monatsbedarf
wieder auffüllen.
Message to the Supreme Naval Command, Group North, Group West, and Command of the
Fleet: “Ship is personnel-wise and materiel-wise fully ready for action, and provisioned for 3
months”.
Herewith, the first chapter in the ship’s life since the commissioning on 24 August 1940, is
successfully completed. The goal was reached after 8 months, being over the target date by
only 14 days; although the original intention (Easter) was missed by a forced waiting period in
Hamburg (24 January to 6 March 1941) of 6 weeks, due to the closing of the Kaiser Wilhelm
Canal and by ice jams.
The crew can be proud of this accomplishment. It was accomplished , because there was an
overall common desire to engage the enemy as soon as possible. I, therefore, had no qualms to
make extremely high demands on them for a prolonged period of time, and because the ship
and his equipment had been totally spared, despite of hard use and very Spartan lay-up time,
from extensive breakdowns and damage.
The state of training that has been reached, compares favorably with that of a capital ship’s
readiness for a full [scale] battle inspection in the good years of peacetime. Although the crew,
with few exceptions, completely lacks real combat experience, I have the calm feeling that all
forthcoming combat demands will be readily dealt with. This feeling is strengthened by the fact
that the combat value of this ship, by virtue of the achieved state of training, awakens great
confidence in every man so that - for the first time in a long time – we can feel at least equal
against any opponent.
The delay of our deployment, whose approximate time could not be kept hidden from the crew,
is a tough disappointment for all involved. I will use the waiting period in the previous manner,
for the further perfection of training, but also to provide somewhat more rest for the crew.
1) // “auch über längere Zeit hinaus” added in the margin in pen by Lindemann’s hand. UR.
2) Handwritten note here: I think it says “völlig” = totally. UR.
I doubt that Leach would have claimed PoW to be trained as well as a battleship that worked up in peacetime.
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

@Wadinga

Hi Sean,
as I said in my previous post, I will not repeat here my evaluation of the military behavior of Capt.Leach, even if you desperately try to drag me into it...... :stop:

Regarding old equipment performing well in other circumstances, I fully agree with you but....
I said "....my conclusion, drawn from this very specific and very short confrontation only, is just that, in this engagement, from a pure gunnery viewpoint, it was much better to risk to use a modern battleship......than to deploy a very well trained and reliable but obsolete ship........"
So, if you "can be bothered" (to use your own words) to read my post, my evaluation is clearly just related to THIS engagement ONLY.


My point is that PoW gunnery dept. performed very well on May 24, while the British problem that day were the guns of the well trained ship (Hood), not to mention the protection problems of the old battlecruiser....

I think it is very unfair to the PoW gunnery dept. and to her whole crew, not to recognize the work done that day (that contributed so much to the final loss of BS) and to continue to misuse their preparation level as an excuse to justify the decision taken by the Captain, in his sole responsibility.

Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Steve Crandell »

Alberto Virtuani wrote: with guns designed 25 years before.......

Bye, Alberto
Kind of like Vanguard.
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by alecsandros »

dunmunro wrote:
I doubt that Leach would have claimed PoW to be trained as well as a battleship that worked up in peacetime.
The situation in which Lindemann was on the eve of Rheinubung can not be considered auspicious; he most certainly was pressured into the mission, just like Luetjens was. Luetjens was extremely pessimistic about the chances of success of such a mission, and he did not expect to return from the voyage.

The optimistic tone of some paragraphs in the reconstructed KTB needs to be corroborated with other paragraphs from the same KTB, as well as with survivor interrogation reports , proxies , etc. [e.g. April 16-30 - ... It became treadfully clear that no clear orders were being issued by the Command for the anticipated deployment, or they were so late that it was impossible to procure the missing equipment and supplies through normal channels May 14th - Combat readiness compromised... renewed failure in port crane... the repeated problems with this crane have been reported several times before. May 23rd - starboard rudder failure on Bismarck... Prinz Eugen prevents further closing-in by hard rudder 40*... ]

Tirpitz spent 11 months between comissioning and being declared "fully operational" by her captain - and that allthough important lessons had been learned during Bismarck's fiting out and preparation, AND allthough the ship was NOT blocked inside some port by ice (Bismarck was blocked 6 weeks, plus 2 more weeks repairs after suffering various damage because some air conduits leading to the machinery were not insulated and had frozen during the low temperatures).
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by northcape »

Alberto Virtuani wrote:@Wadinga

Hi Sean,
as I said in my previous post, I will not repeat here my evaluation of the military behavior of Capt.Leach, even if you desperately try to drag me into it...... :stop:

[...]

I think it is very unfair to the PoW gunnery dept. and to her whole crew, not to recognize the work done that day (that contributed so much to the final loss of BS) and to continue to misuse their preparation level as an excuse to justify the decision taken by the Captain, in his sole responsibility.

Bye, Alberto
Can you spot the contradiction?
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Cag »

Hi All.
Well another interesting an somewhat heated debate! I agree with Alecsandros, and as I posted earlier, Bismarck can only be considered as a green ship, she had a crew consisting of what would be termed in the Royal Navy as 'hostilities only' with a number of 'old hands' helping seamanship training but coming to grips with a new class of ship (A lot like PoW). The difference being that Bismarck's Captain and crew had more time to either be in the process or have 'ironed out' a lot of problems, unlike the PoW, simply due to the amount of time difference available to both ships to conduct working up proceedures (The same could be said for the working up period of KG V) but with the caveat that ALL these ships Bismarck KG V PoW and do not forget Prinz Eugen were partaking in their first operational deployment with all the associated inherant problems.
I also agree with Alberto that the performance of PoW on the 24th May was somewhat creditable, although study of her gunnery plot and narrative does tend to show up the lack of experience of her crew (Captain Leach's comments IIRC 'enthusiastic but inexperienced'?) with double ramming of shells and crew induced jamming and such like. Unfortunately due to the tragedy of the loss of Hood any critisim of tactics or performance of Hood or Holland was thought by the men of PoW to be disrespectful, (As is shown in the IWM interviews with PoW crew) as was any outward expression of pride in hitting of Bismarck.
The reason that Tirpitz was not included in Rheinuebung was due to the Seekriegsleitung opinion that she was unready to do so, the only other ships considered were IIRC Scharnhorst or Gneisenau but were unavailable due to engine overhaul and bomb damage? The reason that Bismarck, Tirpitz and Prinz Eugen can be considered as more worked up is perhaps due to their role in the war. They were never intended to be put into service to defend German trade convoys from Royal Navy attack, their role was the polar opposite, it was to attack the British trade convoys cause disruption and stretching of the British to breaking point. The Admiralty on the other hand , due to fear and the neccessity of defending their trade convoys from the Bismarck et al, had to press the KG V, PoW, and DoY into service and seem to rely on luck for an uninterupted working up period and accepted that their crews would have to 'learn on the job' a situation which was not confined to Battleships. If one looks at the Memoranda from Churchill when 1st Sea Lord one can see the pressure placed on shipyards and armament manufactures to adhere to revised and shortened delivery dates with the threat of monetary penalties if this was not made possible. The KG V in her six months from early December 1940 to 27th May 1941 had to take Lord Halifax to the USA, go to sea on patrol and be visited by the King, the PoW in her two months from the end of March to 24th May 1941 (Already having recieved the King and the Princess Royal) had to recieve the First Sea Lord and they both had to fight the Bismarck.
As always hope this helps and does not offend,
Cag.
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