Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

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alecsandros
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by alecsandros »

@Antonio, Cag
Many thanks for the clarifications, I was mistaken...

@Wadinga
That's right, Antonio has presented very good reasons for the delay...

I'll get back to you shortly,

Best wishes,
alecsandros
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by alecsandros »

pgollin wrote:.

And do you know that the mounts (quad and twin) had a very good reputation (and actual performance) by early 1942 (indeed KGV's performance against the Bismarck was as good as late war USN battleships).

TRY learning some facts instead of spouting nonsense.
... The tone is quite disturbing, to say the least.

Please provide some info on the reliability of the turrets post-1941. I have been searching for something like this for some time to no avail.

What do you mean by " was as good as late war USN battleships" ? Where is this from ?
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

the Tirpitz was NOT completed only in Wilhelmshaven Kriegsmarine Werft yards.
She was completed while into Deutsche Werke at Kiel and in Gotenhafen Seebanhof pier.
So a total of 3 different locations.

For more information please read my book :
Frontcover Band I aktuell (neu).jpg
Frontcover Band I aktuell (neu).jpg (44.56 KiB) Viewed 748 times
Moving on the KGV class 14 inches quadruple turrets design and performances, I am used to refer to Peter Hodges book " The Big Guns " :
Hodges_Big_Gun.jpg
Hodges_Big_Gun.jpg (97.15 KiB) Viewed 748 times
or Tarrant book on KGV :
Tarrant_KGV_battleship_cover.jpg
Tarrant_KGV_battleship_cover.jpg (41.77 KiB) Viewed 748 times
Last edited by Antonio Bonomi on Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

... and on the Tarrant book you can find interesting confirmation about the whole design as well as about the real quadruple turrets performances while in action :
Tarrant_KGV_14inch_01.jpg
Tarrant_KGV_14inch_01.jpg (118.06 KiB) Viewed 747 times

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Herr Nilsson »

Hello Antonio,

what's the title of your second book about Tirpitz?
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by pgollin »

alecsandros wrote:
The reason why both ships went over 35000 tons was probably due to the modifications of the main turret guns. Bismarck was initialy designed with 330mm guns, and KGV with 305mm guns. They ended with 380mm and 356mm guns respectively, increasing the size of guns, turrets, quantity of armor required, and slightly increasing the length of width of the ship to accomodate for the larger barbettes...


What rubbish !

The KGV's were NEVER designed with 12-inch guns. There were numerous studies for what was called "the 1928 battleships" which were PAPER EXERCISES (intended as a possible basis for a new naval treaty). The KGVs were the outcome of what was initially called the "1934 Battlecruisers" - they NEVER were envisioned to be armed with 12-inch guns (there were reference back to the previous studies as a possible basis of negotiations).

Where did you get that rubbish from ?
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by pgollin »

Antonio Bonomi wrote:Hello everybody,

... and on the Tarrant book you can find interesting confirmation about the whole design as well as about the real quadruple turrets performances while in action :

Bye Antonio :D



So you can only find back up for my claims, not yours - thank-you.
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

Herr Nilsson wrote :
Hello Antonio,

what's the title of your second book about Tirpitz?
Tirpitz Volume 2 : " Ready for Combat " May 1941 - January 1942

http://bismarck-tirpitz.com/

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Herr Nilsson »

Thank you, Antonio. The blurb reads:
This second volume describes the completion and frontline readiness of the battleship followed by its initial deployment in the northern Baltic Sea. ....
:ok:
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Cag »

Hi All,
Glad to see your post Herr Nilsson and hope all is better with you. Still working through logs and have got to early May and as far as I can tell the idea of 7 weeks of intensive day and night working up for PoW is still not coming to light (With all due respect to the Matthew B Wills book where this came from I think) will post results as soon as correlated and time permits. May I say to Antonio, very best wishes on the books, I am a big fan of Bismarck but always have had more of a 'soft spot' for the 'Queen of the North' and be assurred that my minor contrabution to any royalties due will be winging its way to you very soon!
Best wishes to all'
Cag.
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by alecsandros »

@Cag
Many thanks for your research.

I'd like to present the reports of the 2 captains - Lindemann and Leach, side by side:

Lindemann, Captain of Bismarck: (8 months after comissioning and after about 4 months training.)

"Message to the Supreme Naval Command, Group North, Group West, and Command of the Fleet: “Ship is personnel-wise and materiel-wise fully ready for action, and provisioned for 3 months”.
[...]
The state of training that has been reached, compares favorably with that of a capital ship’s readiness for a full [scale] battle inspection in the good years of peacetime. Although the crew, with few exceptions, completely lacks real combat experience, I have the calm feeling that all forthcoming combat demands will be readily dealt with. This feeling is strengthened by the fact
that the combat value of this ship, by virtue of the achieved state of training, awakens great confidence in every man so that - for the first time in a long time – we can feel at least equal against any opponent."

Leach, Captain of Prince of Wales: (4 months after comissioning and about 2 months of training)

"b. The working up of the ship after commissioning had only just reached a stage where I felt able to report to the Commander-in-Chief, Home Fleet, that I considered her reasonably fit to take part in service operations. This was the first occasion on which she had done so. From the gunnery point of view the personnel was immensely keen, but inexperienced."
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wadinga
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by wadinga »

Hello All,

Antonio thanks for the extra detail about the finishing touches to Tirpitz. I am reminded of the old adage "No work of art is ever truly finished, only abandoned". It must be realised that battleships are not like production-line consumer goods-guaranteed to be perfect on delivery. Many flaws only emerge with usage in trying conditions and a continual programme of modification and improvement is underway.

However these disruptions prove further that the extended period necessary before Tirpitz was combat ready has no relevance whatsoever to Bismarck's readiness, and we should cease second-guessing Lindemann's report and his Admiral's congratulations. However since these relocations slowed work on the Tirpitz, one must surely accept the same for PoW. :cool:

BTW we know you have the logs for PoW for the Denmark Straits period, do you also have them for the work-up period? Were you aware of the timeline the heroic Cag is uncovering? Geoffrey Brooks Alarm Starboard says "A terrific programme of gunnery exercises began almost at once [on arrival at Scapa} and lasted for seven weeks". [] My addition. Since one, possibly two 14" turrets were only made available on the 26th April, these weapons may only have had three weeks before DS. Hopefully this detail will be confirmed from the logs.

14" efficiency

When evaluating shell delivery systems one should also not lose track of the difficulties of consistently delivering numerous objects each with the mass of a small car, from storage via various mechanical systems, which are rotating relative to one another, whilst the entire arrangement oscillates in three dimensions, vibrates constantly and is massively shocked at frequent intervals. All this requires the concerted, synchronised efforts of tens of human beings, all of whom are working whilst considering the high likelihood of being blown to atoms or trapped and drowned like rats in a trap at any moment. Theoretical delivery rates are apparently often not maintained in practice. Presumably a shell/bag combination which fails to arrive in time for its designated salvo, even by a couple of seconds , is counted as failed and must wait for the next.

Tarrant does not give a total figure for KG V’s 339 shells against Bismarck in 1Hr 32 mins against Bismarck but notes output was as low as 60% for 23 minutes and “an incredible” 20% for seven minutes.

He says of North Cape action "In total, Duke of York fired 450 14" shells in 77 broadsides, plus 600 5,25" shells and 155 rounds of starshell. Her offensive power would have been much greater - by a factor of 200 14" shells - if she had not suffered from the same difficulties which had dogged both PoW and KG V during the Bismarck action: namely the constant mechanical breakdowns." In a total of two hours firing he notes every single 14" gun was affected by loading breakdowns, with one gun in A turret missing 71 of 77 broadsides, but again the two gun turret came out well as it had one gun which only missed 3 broadsides. 68% effective. However this was fought in heavy seas where flooding was a problem.

On 17th July 1945 KG V fired 267 shots in a shore bombardment against Japan when accompanying US battleships fired an average of 247. On 29th July she fired 265 shots in 37 minutes. Rate of fire were probably a bit more leisurely than when fighting enemy battleships which were fighting back.

Rate of fire/efficiency for German capital ships before their sinking are difficult to derive, but I guess for the Glorious action for instance it might be possible.

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by dunmunro »

Some discussion of KGV's 14in turrets and comparisons with foreign designs:
The mountings gave some trouble at first, but in 1942 it was stated that "the performance of the mountings in their early life has given good reason to expect that the design will prove to be thoroughly sound and reliable". R&R

The turrets were designed by the Vickers Annstrongs Elswick Works, but sets of
each type of equipment were manufactured by Vickers Armstrongs in Barrow. Dif·
ficulties in the hydraulic elevating and training gears were eliminated before the King
George V and Prillce of Wales went into action. A considerable amount of design effort
was expended to make the turrets as flash tight as possible. This complicated the
mechanical design of the turrets, particularly the quadruple mountings. Due to insufficient
clearances and slightly distorted link mechanisms, failures in the intricate
safety interlocks in the loading sequence for antiflash precautions caused jams during
drills and practice firings of the Killg George V. Clearances were increased, but in the
battle with the Bismarck, jams occurred in other parts of the mechanism. The Prince
of Wales had similar jams in her action with the Bismarck, but Vickers Armstrongs
technicians assisted the crew in repairing them. Major difficulties with the complicated
system of interlocks resulted in disabling casualties before the system was made
safe and reasonably reliable.
G&D

DoY achieved a 68% output after firing 450 rounds while steaming at high speed through very heavy weather. In similar weather, on April 09 1940, S&G lost 4 of their 6 turrets to water ingress alone. During a prolonged bombardment trial (100 rnds per gun from 6 forward guns) in Oct 1942, over many hours, (with several hours with no firing) in calm seas, USS Idaho achieved the equivalent of about 64% output. USS Massachusetts achieved about 75% (it's difficult to estimate) output at Casablanca during 6-7 hours of firing while operating in calm seas. Massachusetts suffered two turret jams, one for over 30mins and one for a shorter time. She had problems with gun hydraulics and in combination with the turret jams she was briefly down to one functioning 16in gun.
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Byron Angel »

Please define exactly how "output" is being calculated.

B
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Steve Crandell »

Everyone who wants to point out inefficient gunnery from the USN uses Idaho as an example, and that is just silly. They fired off their entire forward magazine. That was the purpose of the test. Late in the test shells had to be manhandled from awkward locations to get them in action, and so there were lots of instances of guns missing salvoes. There were no turret jams or mechanical failures of the weapons at all, and the people monitoring the tests felt the crew did really well under the circumstances and were pleased with the results of the test.
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