We are developers of a new naval sim and we need some help

Discussions about the history of the ship, technical details, etc.

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hanswittman
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Re: We are developers of a new naval sim and we need some help

Post by hanswittman » Fri Sep 25, 2015 3:03 pm

tommy303 wrote:Here is a picture of the SFS Anzeiger with some letters and a following explanation:

Image

A. Teilsalve controls
B. Zentral links left firing circuit on safe. Zentral rechts--right firing circuit on safe. Aus--safety off
C. Zielgeber light--firing to be done from director--less lag time but greater dispersion due to larger errors caused by the local director gyro.
D. Rechenstelle light--fire from computer room with firing circuit connected up to the main fire control gyro--lag time between activating the trigger and the guns going off was greater but dispersion smaller.
E. Arming switches and lights for each of the four turrets--i.e., firing circuit armed..

F. Status lights for left gun of turret I--Fertig--gun loaded. Schuss--gun fired and reloading.
G. Status lights for right gun of turret I
H. Zentral--safety on. Aus--safety off. Feuern--firing circuit connected.
I. Full salvo control.

Normal fire proceedure was to fire in turret groups--i.e., turrets I and II together, followed at an interval by turrets III and IV while I and II were reloading. For full salvos all turrets that could bear on target were fired together..

There may be a few mistakes, but this is the general usage.
Hi Tommy,

Great work and i couldn't ask for more you are a God send to help bringing back the Bismarck to it former glory.
A thousand thank my friend. Just by curiosity are you a naval historian?

Regards Hans

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Re: We are developers of a new naval sim and we need some help

Post by hanswittman » Fri Sep 25, 2015 3:10 pm

tommy303 wrote:As to colours for interior equipment such as the SFS display or engine room controls, go with either white (RAL 9002) or ivory (RAL 9003). Exterior junction boxes, helm console,etc appear to be the same colour as the surrounding surfaces.

As to the admiral's bridge, I do not know of any good interior pictures, so you may have to make a good guess. From photos of the bridge gallery on Hipper or Scharnhorst, before they were enclosed, it appears to be fairly plain with little more than a few phone or junction boxes.
Hi Tommy,

Thank again for the colors recommendation and regarding Admiral bridge we will have to make it based on other German battleships that show partial view of it in videos. The important thing for us is if we have to improvise on some part we just want to make it credible even by historic standard since putting controls that would never be seen in certain stations would ruined the experience.

Regards Hans

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Re: We are developers of a new naval sim and we need some help

Post by Steve Crandell » Fri Oct 02, 2015 12:59 pm

No one seems to have noticed your statement that the fore top had the thickest armor. That is not true. It had the thinnest armor of the three. The one in the conning tower was thickest, and as mentioned previously that was normally used to control the secondary battery.

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Re: We are developers of a new naval sim and we need some help

Post by Dave Saxton » Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:21 pm

pgollin wrote:.

Very interesting pictures, thank-you.

I was surprised that there doesn't seem to be room for a plotting table so as to give a better "picture" of any action.
I had time to look on the official Tirpitz drawings. There is a large plotting room and table inside the conning tower. There is also a smaller plot on the Admiral's Bridge.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.

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Re: We are developers of a new naval sim and we need some help

Post by tommy303 » Sat Oct 03, 2015 12:28 am

Yes, the conning tower plot room is on the same level, I believe as the peacetime navigation bridge, that is one level down from the combat bridge. There was, I believe a sort of reverse periscope which allowed the OOW or captain to take a look at the main plot without leaving the confines of the upper combat level control position. There was also a small chart table in the conning tower navigation position, near the starboard armoured door and anchored to the forward armour of the gunnery control tower.

The admirals plot was, if I recall, within the actual tower mast and not on the enclosed Flag bridge gallery.

Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
They stood and Earth's foundations stay;
What God abandoned these defended;
And saved the sum of things for pay.

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Re: We are developers of a new naval sim and we need some help

Post by pgollin » Sat Oct 03, 2015 11:11 am

.

Dave and Tommy303, Thanks.

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Re: We are developers of a new naval sim and we need some help

Post by hanswittman » Sat Oct 03, 2015 4:01 pm

Steve Crandell wrote:No one seems to have noticed your statement that the fore top had the thickest armor. That is not true. It had the thinnest armor of the three. The one in the conning tower was thickest, and as mentioned previously that was normally used to control the secondary battery.
Hi Steve,

Sorry if i introduce any mistake since i saw it on a plan on the internet but i know that this can have errors as well.

Regards Hans

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Re: We are developers of a new naval sim and we need some help

Post by hanswittman » Sat Oct 03, 2015 4:03 pm

tommy303 wrote:Yes, the conning tower plot room is on the same level, I believe as the peacetime navigation bridge, that is one level down from the combat bridge. There was, I believe a sort of reverse periscope which allowed the OOW or captain to take a look at the main plot without leaving the confines of the upper combat level control position. There was also a small chart table in the conning tower navigation position, near the starboard armoured door and anchored to the forward armour of the gunnery control tower.

The admirals plot was, if I recall, within the actual tower mast and not on the enclosed Flag bridge gallery.
Hi Tommy,

Thank for the info this will help us again with the modeling.

Regards Hans

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Re: We are developers of a new naval sim and we need some help

Post by Steve Crandell » Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:19 am

hanswittman wrote:
Steve Crandell wrote:No one seems to have noticed your statement that the fore top had the thickest armor. That is not true. It had the thinnest armor of the three. The one in the conning tower was thickest, and as mentioned previously that was normally used to control the secondary battery.
Hi Steve,

Sorry if i introduce any mistake since i saw it on a plan on the internet but i know that this can have errors as well.

Regards Hans
The fore top is of course way up high on the top of the fore "mast". You don't want a lot of excess weight 100+ feet above the water.

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Re: We are developers of a new naval sim and we need some help

Post by hanswittman » Mon Oct 05, 2015 3:37 pm

Steve Crandell wrote:
hanswittman wrote:
Steve Crandell wrote:No one seems to have noticed your statement that the fore top had the thickest armor. That is not true. It had the thinnest armor of the three. The one in the conning tower was thickest, and as mentioned previously that was normally used to control the secondary battery.
Hi Steve,

Sorry if i introduce any mistake since i saw it on a plan on the internet but i know that this can have errors as well.

Regards Hans
The fore top is of course way up high on the top of the fore "mast". You don't want a lot of excess weight 100+ feet above the water.
Hi Steve,

Sound logical to me and i will try to see if someone can provide the correct value for all the ship armor.

Regards Hans

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Re: We are developers of a new naval sim and we need some help

Post by tommy303 » Mon Oct 05, 2015 9:54 pm

Hi Tommy,

Thank for the info this will help us again with the modeling.

Regards Hans
As an afterthought, I would expect the admiral's bridge gallery to have at least a gyrocompass repeater and telephones. Three of the seven front square windows or portlights on the admirals bridge enclosure had circular clear screen devices. Most of the more complex equipment such as pitot log repeater would have been in the towermast on that level, remembering that the admirals open gallery had not originally been planned to be closed up.

Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
They stood and Earth's foundations stay;
What God abandoned these defended;
And saved the sum of things for pay.

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Re: We are developers of a new naval sim and we need some help

Post by Dave Saxton » Tue Oct 06, 2015 12:34 am

tommy303 wrote: As an afterthought, I would expect the admiral's bridge gallery to have at least a gyrocompass repeater and telephones. Three of the seven front square windows or portlights on the admirals bridge enclosure had circular clear screen devices. Most of the more complex equipment such as pitot log repeater would have been in the towermast on that level, remembering that the admirals open gallery had not originally been planned to be closed up.
The Admiral's Bridge on Scharnhorst was originally open until late 1942. During the late 42 refit it was enclosed before it went to Norway. Gniesenua's Admiral's Bridge was enclosed from 1939.

Speaking of repeater instrumentation, Tirpitz was equipped with a Berlin (FuMO81) radar system by mid 1944. This system supplied repeater PPI radar presentation to all the important command positions throughout the ship.
Hi Tommy,

Thank for the info this will help us again with the modeling.

Regards Hans

I would recommend reading the Baron von Muellenheim's Battleship Bismarck book to get an idea of how the ship's command functioned and where each battle station was located. For example, the Baron talks about a battle problem exercise during the work up period where the Captain had been wounded in battle and the top side command positions disabled. The fighting of the ship would be transferred to the first officer (On Bismarck Hans Oels) whose battle station was below decks in the Damage Control Center. This center would also need to have a plot and some repeater instrumentation and controls, so that the first officer could command from there. The center was across a companion way from the forward gunnery computer room deep within the citadel. Together these centers functioned more or less as what would later be called a combat information center. The officer in the computer room was the 2nd artillery officer (On Bismarck Friedrich Cardinal), who took over command of the artillery if the 1st artillery Officer (stationed in the foretop) was incapacitated by any means. In the case of the captain's command positions being lost and the captain still being alive he would go to the dressing station located below decks in back of B barbet and the command transfered to the 1st officer.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.

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Re: We are developers of a new naval sim and we need some help

Post by Herr Nilsson » Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:57 am

tommy303 wrote:
Hi Tommy,

Thank for the info this will help us again with the modeling.

Regards Hans
As an afterthought, I would expect the admiral's bridge gallery to have at least a gyrocompass repeater and telephones. Three of the seven front square windows or portlights on the admirals bridge enclosure had circular clear screen devices. Most of the more complex equipment such as pitot log repeater would have been in the towermast on that level, remembering that the admirals open gallery had not originally been planned to be closed up.
On Tirpitz the admiral's bridge was pretty empty. No compass inside the admirals bridge enclosure (there were two outside, one starboard, one port). Four speaking tubes. Four folding tables on the outer walls below the windows next to the front corners. One locker on port at the towermast wall. One small raditator on starbord attached to the towermast wall between door and one of the three "windows" of the shelter. All other devices were in the shelter inside the towermast.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)

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Re: We are developers of a new naval sim and we need some help

Post by hanswittman » Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:49 pm

tommy303 wrote:
Hi Tommy,

Thank for the info this will help us again with the modeling.

Regards Hans
As an afterthought, I would expect the admiral's bridge gallery to have at least a gyrocompass repeater and telephones. Three of the seven front square windows or portlights on the admirals bridge enclosure had circular clear screen devices. Most of the more complex equipment such as pitot log repeater would have been in the towermast on that level, remembering that the admirals open gallery had not originally been planned to be closed up.
Hi Tommy,

Thank for the clarifications regarding Admiral bridge, we will try to make it look credible. Next week i am about to start on the Bismarck various stations.

Regards Hans

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Re: We are developers of a new naval sim and we need some help

Post by hanswittman » Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:55 pm

Dave Saxton wrote:
tommy303 wrote: As an afterthought, I would expect the admiral's bridge gallery to have at least a gyrocompass repeater and telephones. Three of the seven front square windows or portlights on the admirals bridge enclosure had circular clear screen devices. Most of the more complex equipment such as pitot log repeater would have been in the towermast on that level, remembering that the admirals open gallery had not originally been planned to be closed up.
The Admiral's Bridge on Scharnhorst was originally open until late 1942. During the late 42 refit it was enclosed before it went to Norway. Gniesenua's Admiral's Bridge was enclosed from 1939.

Speaking of repeater instrumentation, Tirpitz was equipped with a Berlin (FuMO81) radar system by mid 1944. This system supplied repeater PPI radar presentation to all the important command positions throughout the ship.
Hi Tommy,

Thank for the info this will help us again with the modeling.

Regards Hans

I would recommend reading the Baron von Muellenheim's Battleship Bismarck book to get an idea of how the ship's command functioned and where each battle station was located. For example, the Baron talks about a battle problem exercise during the work up period where the Captain had been wounded in battle and the top side command positions disabled. The fighting of the ship would be transferred to the first officer (On Bismarck Hans Oels) whose battle station was below decks in the Damage Control Center. This center would also need to have a plot and some repeater instrumentation and controls, so that the first officer could command from there. The center was across a companion way from the forward gunnery computer room deep within the citadel. Together these centers functioned more or less as what would later be called a combat information center. The officer in the computer room was the 2nd artillery officer (On Bismarck Friedrich Cardinal), who took over command of the artillery if the 1st artillery Officer (stationed in the foretop) was incapacitated by any means. In the case of the captain's command positions being lost and the captain still being alive he would go to the dressing station located below decks in back of B barbet and the command transfered to the 1st officer.
Hi Dave,

Thank a lot for bringing this up and i will have a look for the book you mention. We are trying to make it the closest possible to the real ship but we also have to keep in mind that all other German battleship in the game will have the same type of stations since it would take almost a lifetime to recreate each ship individually and reference material is almost nil.

Regards Hans

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