We are developers of a new naval sim and we need some help

Discussions about the history of the ship, technical details, etc.

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hanswittman
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Re: We are developers of a new naval sim and we need some help

Post by hanswittman » Tue Sep 22, 2015 4:11 pm

Hi again,

I have read in one of my book that they also had flooding control over ammo compartment on some battleships to stop fire from spreading there to avoid conflagration, since i am not an expert my thought are that the Bismarck would have the same system?

This could lead to interesting tactical gameplay when a player would be required to make difficult decisions to save the ship but would get hindered with less ammo to pursue battle.

Regards Hans

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Re: We are developers of a new naval sim and we need some help

Post by dunmunro » Tue Sep 22, 2015 6:34 pm

I would suggest that you take a look at the old DOS game: Great Naval Battles of the North Atlantic. IIRC, it had provisions for flooding the magazines and counterflooding, etc.

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Re: We are developers of a new naval sim and we need some help

Post by tommy303 » Tue Sep 22, 2015 7:31 pm

pgollin wrote:.

Very interesting pictures, thank-you.

I was surprised that there doesn't seem to be room for a plotting table so as to give a better "picture" of any action.

I GUESS that the periscope was used for general views? Or ?

Was it ever envisaged that the Captain would conn the ship from here, or was this only a back-up ?
Which periscope are you referring to? The ones in the armoured ship's control position of the conning tower(one centre line and two each to port and starboard) would have been used by the captain and other personnel when the ship was buttoned up at battle stations. The captain could of course stay on the open combat bridge gallery if he so chose as the view from outside the conning tower was better. For that matter, he could direct the ship from the foretop, as Langsdorff of the Graf Spee did since the view from the tower mast as much better than from the combat bridge, although such was not encouraged and could lead to his being isolated if the tower mast was damaged.

The low angle fire control positions, conning tower, foretop and after control had director optics sticking up through the armoured roofs, as well as an observation periscope which was used as a spotting glass. The periscope in this case was a dedicated part of the fire control system

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Re: We are developers of a new naval sim and we need some help

Post by tommy303 » Tue Sep 22, 2015 7:45 pm

Hans,

Arrangements for flooding magazines was quite common. Magazines could be flooded, but they could also be pumped out or drained fairly quickly if doing so would help restore buoyancy or if the danger to the magazine passed. The decision either way would have been the ship's XO who was in charge of damage control. On Bismarck main and secondary turrets had their own ammunition storage below decks, while the Flak guns received ammunition from centralized fore and after magazines via hoists which brought ammunition to ready rooms in the superstructure:

Image

Earlier I mentioned the fire control positions had an SFS Anzieger or gun ready board for main and secondary armaments. Below is a picture of one for the 38cm battery

Image

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Re: We are developers of a new naval sim and we need some help

Post by hanswittman » Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:28 am

dunmunro wrote:I would suggest that you take a look at the old DOS game: Great Naval Battles of the North Atlantic. IIRC, it had provisions for flooding the magazines and counterflooding, etc.
Hi dunmunro,

Thank for the tip i search a lot for past naval game and i am surprised i never came across this one.

Regards Hans

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Re: We are developers of a new naval sim and we need some help

Post by hanswittman » Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:38 am

tommy303 wrote:Hans,

Arrangements for flooding magazines was quite common. Magazines could be flooded, but they could also be pumped out or drained fairly quickly if doing so would help restore buoyancy or if the danger to the magazine passed. The decision either way would have been the ship's XO who was in charge of damage control. On Bismarck main and secondary turrets had their own ammunition storage below decks, while the Flak guns received ammunition from centralized fore and after magazines via hoists which brought ammunition to ready rooms in the superstructure:

Image

Earlier I mentioned the fire control positions had an SFS Anzieger or gun ready board for main and secondary armaments. Below is a picture of one for the 38cm battery

Image
Hi Tommy,

That what i thought that most battleships would required such a flooding system to avoid a catastrophic explosion.

Amazing picture for the panel, i never saw this picture anywhere and i search a lot about controls panel often by typing the Brand name and the result were quite poor.

Would be great if someone could figure out the name for the various controls on the panel since i doubt even by zooming that i will be able to read it.

The website and forum for Atlantic Warfare should be online at the end of October or early November and we plan to make it very interactive with the sim community and all the ww2 historical military enthusiasts.

The minute i jump on modeling the Bismarck stations i will let you know Tommy since this week i am finishing a Short Sunderland cockpit instruments.

Regards Hans

Regards Hans

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Re: We are developers of a new naval sim and we need some help

Post by tommy303 » Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:07 pm

give me a little while when I have a few spare minutes and I can probably help you with most of the labels on the SFS Anzieger.

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Re: We are developers of a new naval sim and we need some help

Post by hanswittman » Wed Sep 23, 2015 6:46 pm

tommy303 wrote:give me a little while when I have a few spare minutes and I can probably help you with most of the labels on the SFS Anzieger.
Hi Tommy,

That would be great and if we managed to get any success with the game believe me we will not forget you my friend.

Regards Hans

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Re: We are developers of a new naval sim and we need some help

Post by tommy303 » Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:00 pm

At the top is a label with Teilsalve, two status lights and a black square with Zentral links/Aus/Zentral
rechts. This is for partial salvos. The operator would chose the right or left central firing circuit,or set
both to off line (Aus) in which case the firing woul be conducted from the director instead of the fire
control gyro.

next are two light coloured squares. The one on the left would light up if firing was being controlled from the
director. The right would light up if firing was being controlled from the Rechenstelle or computing room.

There follows below those sets of lights labeled fertig (ready) and Schuss (fire) of the right and left guns
in each turret. Turret status is indicated by lights to the right of those. Finally each turret has a square
I. Geschuetz, II. Geschuetz, etc. with Zentral Aus Feuern (?) to indicate control set to central fire control, offline
or Feuern, ready to fire if the SFS board is in the controlling position.

Finally, at the bottom on the right is the control and indicator lights for Vollsalve (broadsides with all main battery turrets.
). on the left the Halt (standby) and Aus (off) control.

Hopefully some of our board members and friends from Germany can double check. If I have made some mistakes, my apologies.

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Re: We are developers of a new naval sim and we need some help

Post by tommy303 » Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:16 pm

I'll see if I can create a little diagram SFS display tonight and send it in the morning, just to make things a little clearer.

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Re: We are developers of a new naval sim and we need some help

Post by frontkampfer » Thu Sep 24, 2015 12:43 am

Tommy,

Your posts have been among the most informative I have read. Bravo!

If I might ask, where would one look for more info on German FC. Anything in English?

Again, Well Done!
"I will not have my ship shot out from under my ass!"

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Re: We are developers of a new naval sim and we need some help

Post by tommy303 » Thu Sep 24, 2015 12:59 am

Naval Firepower by Friedman would be a decent start.

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Re: We are developers of a new naval sim and we need some help

Post by hanswittman » Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:52 am

tommy303 wrote:At the top is a label with Teilsalve, two status lights and a black square with Zentral links/Aus/Zentral
rechts. This is for partial salvos. The operator would chose the right or left central firing circuit,or set
both to off line (Aus) in which case the firing woul be conducted from the director instead of the fire
control gyro.

next are two light coloured squares. The one on the left would light up if firing was being controlled from the
director. The right would light up if firing was being controlled from the Rechenstelle or computing room.

There follows below those sets of lights labeled fertig (ready) and Schuss (fire) of the right and left guns
in each turret. Turret status is indicated by lights to the right of those. Finally each turret has a square
I. Geschuetz, II. Geschuetz, etc. with Zentral Aus Feuern (?) to indicate control set to central fire control, offline
or Feuern, ready to fire if the SFS board is in the controlling position.

Finally, at the bottom on the right is the control and indicator lights for Vollsalve (broadsides with all main battery turrets.
). on the left the Halt (standby) and Aus (off) control.

Hopefully some of our board members and friends from Germany can double check. If I have made some mistakes, my apologies.
Hi Tommy,

Well done my friend that is a very good start to model firing control in a realistic way. It will be much easier to follow when we will show the model progress and apply your knowledge to it. I would guess that most control panel and electrical box would be white or very light grey.

Never thought i would be able to gather all this information and we are all historical nuts in team regarding these details.
I have search a bit today on German battleship Admiral bridge layout and i was not very lucky so far, i know that at a certain point we will have no other choice than to improvise on some part of the ship.

As an example i search last month for C-2 cargo hull cross sections plan and i found absolutely nothing, for the Bismarck it was easy since we bought the book Bismarck anatomy of the ship and they had the cross sections plan for the hull.

Most naval Sim i saw so far have no realistic hull for the Bismarck or sister ship Tirpitz but in Atlantic Warfare it will the real deal.

Regards Hans

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Re: We are developers of a new naval sim and we need some help

Post by tommy303 » Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:18 pm

Here is a picture of the SFS Anzeiger with some letters and a following explanation:

Image

A. Teilsalve controls
B. Zentral links left firing circuit on safe. Zentral rechts--right firing circuit on safe. Aus--safety off
C. Zielgeber light--firing to be done from director--less lag time but greater dispersion due to larger errors caused by the local director gyro.
D. Rechenstelle light--fire from computer room with firing circuit connected up to the main fire control gyro--lag time between activating the trigger and the guns going off was greater but dispersion smaller.
E. Arming switches and lights for each of the four turrets--i.e., firing circuit armed..

F. Status lights for left gun of turret I--Fertig--gun loaded. Schuss--gun fired and reloading.
G. Status lights for right gun of turret I
H. Zentral--safety on. Aus--safety off. Feuern--firing circuit connected.
I. Full salvo control.

Normal fire proceedure was to fire in turret groups--i.e., turrets I and II together, followed at an interval by turrets III and IV while I and II were reloading. For full salvos all turrets that could bear on target were fired together..

There may be a few mistakes, but this is the general usage.

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They stood and Earth's foundations stay;
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And saved the sum of things for pay.

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Re: We are developers of a new naval sim and we need some help

Post by tommy303 » Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:50 pm

As to colours for interior equipment such as the SFS display or engine room controls, go with either white (RAL 9002) or ivory (RAL 9003). Exterior junction boxes, helm console,etc appear to be the same colour as the surrounding surfaces.

As to the admiral's bridge, I do not know of any good interior pictures, so you may have to make a good guess. From photos of the bridge gallery on Hipper or Scharnhorst, before they were enclosed, it appears to be fairly plain with little more than a few phone or junction boxes.

Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
They stood and Earth's foundations stay;
What God abandoned these defended;
And saved the sum of things for pay.

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