Hood Gunnery on May 24

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paulcadogan
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Re: Hood Gunnery on May 24

Post by paulcadogan » Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:08 am

Dave Saxton wrote:A shell passing through the Hood's fighting top would strike the water about 100 meters beyond the center line of the ship at those ranges. Given the target angle it would have struck the water not far off the port side aft of midships.
You mean kinda like this? :dance:
Attachments
Hood dio 1 - spotting top splash.jpg
Yellow arrow points to splash from shell that went through spotting top without exploding - hence smaller than the others.
Hood dio 1 - spotting top splash.jpg (216.95 KiB) Viewed 2491 times
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Steve Crandell
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Re: Hood Gunnery on May 24

Post by Steve Crandell » Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:28 am

OK, thanks for doing the math. :)

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Re: Hood Gunnery on May 24

Post by dunmunro » Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:53 am

I used a right angle triangle solver app:

http://www.cleavebooks.co.uk/scol/calrtri.htm

and plugged an AoF of 13 into angle A and 120 into edge a. The result for edge b is 533 or 174 yds.

I obtained an AoF of 13 degrees from the 38cm range table at Navweaps at an estimated range of 19k yds.

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Re: Hood Gunnery on May 24

Post by Steve Crandell » Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:57 am

dunmunro wrote:I used a right angle triangle solver app:

http://www.cleavebooks.co.uk/scol/calrtri.htm

and plugged an AoF of 13 into angle A and 120 into edge a. The result for edge b is 533 or 174 yds.

I obtained an AoF of 13 degrees from the 38cm range table at Navweaps at an estimated range of 19k yds.
I would have done the same, but I've forgotten how to do the trig and didn't know about the app. What interests me is that the 4 round pattern for the 16"/50 at 20,000 yds is only about 250 yards (If they ever did that), and yet lots of folks keep saying the German 15" pattern is smaller.

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Re: Hood Gunnery on May 24

Post by paul.mercer » Sun Jul 12, 2015 9:34 pm

Gentlemen,
If two or three of Hood's shells hit PE would that have been enough to take he out of the battle (I know it depends where she was hit, but let us say it was around the middle of the ship for instance).

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Re: Hood Gunnery on May 24

Post by Steve Crandell » Mon Jul 13, 2015 1:39 am

paul.mercer wrote:Gentlemen,
If two or three of Hood's shells hit PE would that have been enough to take he out of the battle (I know it depends where she was hit, but let us say it was around the middle of the ship for instance).
Two or three of Bismarck's shells hit Hood and it definitely took her out of the battle, so I would say yes.

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Re: Hood Gunnery on May 24

Post by RF » Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:31 am

paul.mercer wrote:Gentlemen,
If two or three of Hood's shells hit PE would that have been enough to take he out of the battle (I know it depends where she was hit, but let us say it was around the middle of the ship for instance).
Had that happened it would have added insult to injury for targeting the wrong ship - yes it would have finished Prinz Eugen but Bismarck was the real threat.
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Re: Hood Gunnery on May 24

Post by RF » Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:31 am

paul.mercer wrote:Gentlemen,
If two or three of Hood's shells hit PE would that have been enough to take he out of the battle (I know it depends where she was hit, but let us say it was around the middle of the ship for instance).
Had that happened it would have added insult to injury for targeting the wrong ship - yes it would have finished Prinz Eugen but Bismarck was the real threat.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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Re: Hood Gunnery on May 24

Post by RF » Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:32 am

Cancel double posting.
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Re: Hood Gunnery on May 24

Post by paulcadogan » Mon Jul 13, 2015 1:20 pm

RF wrote:Had that happened it would have added insult to injury for targeting the wrong ship
I don't understand your reasoning RF...how could hitting and disabling and enemy warship add insult to injury? I would think it would have been a welcome relief - a disabling injury to PG could have sent her right into the arms of Norfolk and Suffolk to be finished off with Bismarck facing the two British heavies alone.

Even if Hood was still subsequently sunk, the battle would no longer be classified as a walkover German victory.
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Re: Hood Gunnery on May 24

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:36 am

Hi all,
had PG been blown up, I tend to agree with Paul: at least, German victory would not have been so complete, even with Hood explosion.

However, had PG been disabled (or even just slowed), as it is more probable then a single direct hit in the magazines during the first phase of the battle, Lutjens would have been put in a very, very difficult situation with just 2 alternatives:
1) continue his course/speed abandoning the agonizing PG to Norfolk and Suffolk.
2) maneuver BS to protect PG risking his flagship (this was exactly the risk for which Brinkmann had to explain to German authorities why PG did not leave the line of fire during the battle....)
Both this scenarios would have been even worst then PG directly blowing up, for Germans morale/propaganda (choice 1 from Lutjens) and for German final victory of the battle (choice 2).

IMHO, Lutjens would have chosen alternative 1, but we can't know for sure, as he correctly would have felt himself responsible for the whole German squadron..... In a similar situation, Adm.Iachino at Cape Matapan decided not to leave the Pola alone and sacrificed a full division of 3 heavy cruisers (plus destroyers) instead of just one..... An error, but a comprehensible and, IMHO, gallant one.

Bye, Alberto
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Re: Hood Gunnery on May 24

Post by alecsandros » Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:38 am

paulcadogan wrote:

Correction though -
dunmunro wrote:0552 2 v 1 GOB - 1 [ to PoW from Hood fire at left hand German ship bearing 337d]
That's the shift target RIGHT signal.
Sorry for a dig-up, but I thought it was more appropriate to respond here then to open another thread:

The target "RIGHT" that Paul is mentioning was... Bismarck... So actualy Holland knew which was which at 5:52 ? :think:

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Re: Hood Gunnery on May 24

Post by paulcadogan » Thu Feb 18, 2016 11:44 am

alecsandros wrote:The target "RIGHT" that Paul is mentioning was... Bismarck... So actualy Holland knew which was which at 5:52 ?
Well....not necessarily! This was my speculation poster earlier in this thread:
My speculation is that Holland was unsure which ship was Bismarck so at the last minute changed his mind and divided his ships fire. There was no time for explaining the strategy change to Leach.

Hood did not come under fire for almost 3 minutes after she opened fire - plenty of time for a shift of target order, issued at 0552, to reach her gunners. My suspicion is that it was NOT directed to Hood's gunners at that time, only later when it was definitively determined which enemy ship was Bismarck.

Ted Briggs account: (Here you go Alberto)
Suddenly a report from the spotting top made Holland realize he had blundered. "We're shooting at the wrong ship. The Bismarck's on the right not the left." .......Holland seemed hardly perturbed and in the same monotonous voice said "Shift target to the right."


Again my speculation would be that the intonation of the report could have been "WE'RE shooting at the wrong ship". Briggs insists in his book that the target correction was made and he saw Hood's shells falling around Bismarck - but how could he have known for sure? He could very well have seen PoW's fall of shot.
Briggs' account suggests the definitive ID of Bismarck occurred AFTER fire was opened on PG, not before, but the singal to PoW to shift target right took place apparently just BEFORE Hood opened fire. There should have been nothing to prevent Hood shifting her target at that time if that was the intention (no damage, no communication breakdown). Again, just speculation......
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Re: Hood Gunnery on May 24

Post by alecsandros » Thu Feb 18, 2016 11:59 am

The certain things are that Hood issued that message to Prince of Wales at 5:52... 3 minutes AFTER the initial message "engage enemy farthest left" at 5:49.

So ... Holland ordered Leach to fire ON the ship to the right... AFTER initialy requiring to engage the ship to the left...

IMHO, Holland knew which was which at 5:52... Otherwise the messages make no sense.

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Re: Hood Gunnery on May 24

Post by paulcadogan » Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:55 pm

But Alec, put yourself in Holland's place at 0551 - you WANT both your ships to engage Bismarck, but based on your flagship's optics you cannot tell for sure which ship is which. You ASSUME Bismarck will be leading, but truly at 27,000 yards the silhouette's are virtually identical (recalling the profiles posted by Tommy303 some time back).

What would you do?
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