The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

[Byron Angel]

Thanks for the date, Wadinga.

B

[dunmunro]

Wadinga wrote: "... To me it is sad even McMullen and Sir Henry Leach are convinced, though they have no source other than Tovey and neither question why he hasn't mentioned it at any time in the previous twenty years....."

Hi Sean,
you forget that Sir Henry Leach spoke with his father when PoW was deployed in the Far East and (as per Tarrant's account) he asked him about the DS.......
He had a first hand account and he clearly trusted the court-martial request.

Bye, Alberto

Tarrant's account does not state nor imply that Henry Leach was informed by his father of a possible court-martial. Tovey never stated that he informed any of his subordinates about a potential court martial.

Henry Leach never stated or implied that his father told him, in Dec 1941, about a potential court martial stemming from the Bismarck action.

We need solid references for a potential court martial not winks.

[Alberto Virtuani]

@Dunmunro:

Hi Duncan,
are you saying that Sir Henry Leach was lightly trusting rumors about the court-martial request for his father ?

His words under the photo in Tarrant's book are clear enough: he believed that the CM request was actually done. I prefer to think he had some solid info from his father during their meeting in Singapore or from the Admiralty in his later career that convinced him to trust such a "delicate" matter touching the honor of his father.....

Tarrant_page_61_Leach_photo_caption.jpg (96.79 KiB) Viewed 2799 times

Bye, Alberto

[wadinga]

Hi All,

Google Books’ look inside feature allowed the following:

Sir Henry Leach in his book Endure No Makeshifts (1993) says “Miraculously my father survived, though he had been flung right across the Bridge by the blast and was ruptured and briefly knocked out.”

This is the same Captain Leach who (in Antonio’s scenario) immediately sprang up, ran down flights of stairs and ordered a withdrawal, all in 40 seconds, I believe.

After repeating the Court Martial story he goes on. “Father was awarded the Distinguished Service Order.

[New Paragraph] This saga emerged later and anyway I had little opportunity……”

A page or so later is a detailed description of the two meetings he had with his father in Singapore and in neither of them is the Court Martial matter raised. It is clear even John Leach was unaware of the possibility of such happenings in 1941. Could he really have captained Winston’s yacht to Argentia and back with Pound onboard as well, if there were an ounce of truth in the Court Martial story? Somewhere along the line, something would have leaked.

How much later the “saga” emerged is not clear, but I wouldn’t mind betting it was after 1961! 1961 when Tovey’s ailing recollection had turned a vague observation by Pound 20 years previously, describing a Churchillian rant on the morning of the 24th May at Chartwell, into a serious proposal for disciplinary action requiring action by the First Sea Lord and C in C Home Fleet. There was no such thing of course, otherwise some other evidence would have emerged. In fact, I wouldn’t mind betting Sir Henry only found out about the “threat” to his father in 1974 when Kennedy’s book was published!

Sir Henry Leach had his own battles with politicians in the time of the Falklands Conflict and many serving officers have little respect for their political masters. He may truly have believed the Court Martial story, but the picture caption in Tarrant’s book refers to “Leach” in the third person which means the words are surely not those of Sir Henry. I think the bracketed reference is instructions to the typesetter on which picture to insert accidentally added to the text. The caption words are Tarrant’s I believe.

All the Best
wadinga

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

Sean, you are not keeping in account that he could have ordered the turn away before having walked away down stairs into a different position. The PoW compass platform, as I showed you on another thread, was still usable and the voice pipe was intact.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6276&start=75

The timetable of those events has been widely debated and it is a fixed parameter now.

I am sure you have this book :

Leach (2).jpg (81.29 KiB) Viewed 2771 times

The above book has been realized by the author with a lot of help from Adm Henry Leach and his careful scrutiny, as you can read yourself :

Wills_Leach_Adm.jpg (167.37 KiB) Viewed 2771 times

So, do you agree it reflects Admiral Henry Leach opinion about the whole the matter ?

Obviously on the above book both the court martial request by Adm Pound ( page 93 ) as well as the discussion with his father about the Denmark Strait battle the night he had dinner with him alone in far east ( page 127 ), ... so the last time he saw him alive, ... are confirmed.

Moving to Colin McMullen, ... that apparently nobody keeps in consideration, ... and I understand it since we have a First Sea Lord son of Capt J.C. Leach too on same matter ... he surely was receiving Adm Tovey visit with his uncle Vice Admiral Sir Geoffrey Blake, KCB, DSO (16 September 1882 – 18 July 1968) before ViceAdm Blake died, so before July 1968.

Note that ViceAdm G. Blake was the one running the Hood First board of Inquiry, so the discussion about the potential court martial was right on the money with him.

Surely Colin McMullen was very sharp when he released his IWM interview, it is enough to listen to him, and I rate him clever enough to realize if Adm Tovey was in condition or not to properly cover the matters he talked about on his interview.

In this case we have a personal declaration of a trustable person, Colin McMullen, having heard personally Adm Tovey talking about the court martial request he received from Adm Pound.

Bye Antonio

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

can I ask anybody having the Sir Ludovic Kennedy book PURSUIT ( 1974 ) on his original English language version to post here a good view of the second epilogue chapter page, the one where L. Kennedy described the court martial request, plus its footnote 2.

In my Italian version is at page 252, ... the second page of the Epilogue chapter, ... and its reference footnote 2 is on page 267 with the explanation of it.

I kindly ask you to post here both page 252 as well as page 267 footnote. Thanks.

@ Wadinga,

can I ask you to do the same with the pages from this book I do not have : Sir Henry Leach - ENDURE NO MAKESHIFTS (1993)

I like to read the pages about the court martial request description in there and its details or footnotes. Thanks

Bye Antonio

[Dave Saxton]

I can vaguely remember reading something about this somewhere. In the chance that it was in my readings of Churchill, I looked in The Grand Alliance. Nope. It wasn't there. Churchill wrote in the Grand Alliance (late 40s) that Leach determined to break off soon after coming under fire and receiving hits, and after a few minutes POW turned away. Just a simple statement of the facts, and he doesn't seemed to be critical of Leach's decision. He then describes how the command fell upon W-W and it was W-W's decision to await Tovey or to re-engage. Churchill wrote that the important factor for W-W was the condition of POW after it turned away. He then wrote that W-W's decision was "undoubtably right."

Another thing of note, was that Churchill wrote that Norfolk was shadowing from a distance of 12 miles before the Denmark St. battle. He doesn't say how he knew this, or an exact source.

[paulcadogan]

can I ask anybody having the Sir Ludovic Kennedy book PURSUIT ( 1974 ) on his original English language version to post here a good view of the second epilogue chapter page, the one where L. Kennedy described the court martial request, plus its footnote 2.

Here you go Antonio:

Pusuit: Epilogue

Pursuit P226-7.jpg (214.62 KiB) Viewed 2733 times

Pursuit: Notes for Epilogue

Pusuit P238-9.jpg (187.29 KiB) Viewed 2733 times

[Aaven]

Mr Bonomi's message of the 25th states that the turn away could have been ordered before the hit was made on the compass platform. Reaching, I call that.
That the compass platform was still usable. One of the official reports states that the compass platform was UNUSABLE for a period of 30 or 40 minutes (I have forgotten which), until it had been cleared of human remains, at which time it was brought back into action. If I find the precise ADM reference I will quote from it.
I make the assumption that Mr Bonomi has not read the document in question.

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ Mr A. Raven,

you should read a bit better my above statement to Sean ( Wadinga ) where I wrote that Capt Leach could have ordered the turn away for the PoW AFTER having received the hit on the Compass Platform but BEFORE leaving the compass platform itself in order to enable the area to be cleaned by the human remains.

Just like it is showed on the movie " Sink the Bismarck " of 1960, as you can see here on the following photo :

Leach_movie_Sink_the_Bismarck.jpg (34.81 KiB) Viewed 2675 times

My assumption is based on the fact that the compass platform voice pipe from where Capt Leach probably ordered the turn away of his battleship hard to port around the remains of HMS Hood sinking was still intact after the received Bismarck hit.

I have demonstrated this fact using available photos of the HMS Prince of Wales compass platform taken before and after the event.

So, I suggest you to read more carefully the available link I have provided, study the thread about the Hit on PoW Compass platform with the related documents and photos, and than come back to me in case you have any disagreement about what I have demonstrated.

Here again for your convenience the proper link for the 8 pages discussion about the " Hit on POW compass platform " :

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6276

Bye Antonio

[A Raven]

I suggest most strongly that Mr Bonomi read the document in question.

"Capt Leach could have ordered the turn away ....."

+Just like it showed on the movie ..."

"My assumption ...."

Enough rope .....

[A Raven]

From Admiralty report, by Wake-Walker after the loss of the Hood.
"The alternative was to ensure her interception by the Commander-in -Chief. This I felt I had good reason for thinking I could achieve. At this time I was expecting the Commander-in-Chief to be able to make contact about 0100 on the 25th - before dark - and I saw no reason why our success so far in keeping touch should not continue.

The decision was not an easy one. ........"

[wadinga]

Hello Antonio,

I don't possess "Endure No Makeshifts by Sir Henry Leach. I used the "Look Inside" feature on the Google Books website. Whether you can do this from Italy I don't know. http://www.books.google.co.uk and search for the title. Page 7 onwards describes the Singapore meeting. There is not the slightest hint that either man was aware of the threat of a Court Martial. Or indeed that Leach Snr was party to a cover-up of cowardice, both his own and his senior officer, and extensive falsifications of reports perpetrated in order to dishonestly secure decorations and awards, as you have postulated for the last two years and which you apparently intend to publish.

You say

The timetable of those events has been widely debated and it is a fixed parameter now.

and

I have demonstrated this fact using available photos of the HMS Prince of Wales compass platform taken before and after the event.

Once again, after two years of tireless promotion, your "facts" are not facts, and your fixed parameters are equally speculative.

Hello Alberto,

you have said

as well as the discussion with his father about the Denmark Strait battle the night he had dinner with him alone in far east ( page 127 ),

I hope that you can access "Endure no Makeshifts"

I don't see how Leach's biographer can know more about the event, than Henry Leach himself writing his autobiography. Father and son talking about how John Leach was knocked unconscious and suffered a rupture and was thrown across the Bridge is not confirming the Court Martial story. What it does suggest is that 40 seconds after the shell's impact he was unlikely to be leaping to the voicepipes Antonio speculates were fully operational, in order to maintain Antonio's highly dubious alternate history timetable.

Since Matthew B Mills' book and its gushing enthusiasm for John Leach's efforts seems to have originally provoked Antonio into this two year slur campaign, I am glad do not possess it, however in the blurb below it does suggest Mills received "copies of his father's confidential reports, which the Royal navy never releases to anyone except next of kin". Now if they include an authenticated 1941 record of Court martial proceedings being developed against Leach, that would be evidence. Maybe Antonio could contact Mr Mills and ask him about same, whilst perhaps hiding the fact that it is in order to destroy that officer's reputation?

While I am searching for ammunition for your campaign, here is another suggestion. Although it is clear that in no way were VCNS Tom Phillips' recommendations for a second enquiry into Hood's loss anything to do with the slightest suspicion that tactics needed investigation, sources do note he thought some of the Honours bestowed were excessive, notably Dalrymple-Hamilton's. Maybe if his comments on this subject were located, that would be something there to indicate the Court martial proposal was something more than the product of an enfeebled mind mis-remembering things in 1961.

All the best

wadinga

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

thanks for your cooperation on finding the book by Adm Henry Leach.

Here the link to see part of it including the one of our interest at pages 7 and 8.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Wx3 ... &q&f=false

... and here the part of the text of our interest.

page_7A.jpg (178.34 KiB) Viewed 2619 times

page_7B.jpg (148.7 KiB) Viewed 2619 times

page_8A.jpg (106.71 KiB) Viewed 2619 times

Bye Antonio

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

and here Wills book pages 93, 127 and 128. Now you can read and compare the texts.

Leach_page_93.jpg (111.82 KiB) Viewed 2617 times

Leach_page_127.jpg (103.54 KiB) Viewed 2617 times

Leach_page_128.jpg (86.76 KiB) Viewed 2617 times

Bye Antonio