PoW secondary 5.25inch - 133mm guns at DS

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: PoW secondary 5.25inch - 133mm guns at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

it is much more simple and also official than you think Duncan.

But you must work very hard to find it, and you need to know how things have ben done and why, and I STOP here.

I have given out enough information already, and you will pardon me for NOT allowing anymore publications done with my researched material.

When I will publish my work you will have plenty of details about it, than I will invite you to check them out.

Personal question for you : Have you been in the Army ? Navy ? Officer or what ?

I repeat my request to you :

According to you who wrote this statement ? :
I had seen her forced out of action after 10 minutes' engagement, at the end of which her salvoes were falling short and with a very large spread indeed.
As a result of the action she was short of one (1) gun and her bridge was wrecked.
NOTE : I think you would agree that 10 minutes after 05.53 = 06.03


Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: PoW secondary 5.25inch - 133mm guns at DS

Post by dunmunro »

Antonio Bonomi wrote:

According to you who wrote this statement ? :
I had seen her forced out of action after 10 minutes' engagement, at the end of which her salvoes were falling short and with a very large spread indeed.
As a result of the action she was short of one (1) gun and her bridge was wrecked.
NOTE : I think you would agree that 10 minutes after 05.53 = 06.03

Bye Antonio :D
Wake-Walker wrote it, but it without the rest of the report for context it could easily be interpreted that PoW was forced out of action after being engaged by Bismarck for 10 minutes or around 0611-0614... However, perhaps W-W gives a precise time for the end of the battle that was not quoted in Tovey's despatch?
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: PoW secondary 5.25inch - 133mm guns at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

come on Duncan, ... the engagement of 10 minutes, ... " at the end of which her salvoes were falling short and with a very large spread indeed. "

That is the end of PoW firing in central control.

It is enough to take the PoW gunnery aspect report and read on it that the total main guns fire time was 8 minutes and 58 seconds precisely.

Do you agree that 05.53 + 10 = 06.03 ?

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
dunmunro
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Re: PoW secondary 5.25inch - 133mm guns at DS

Post by dunmunro »

Antonio Bonomi wrote:Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

come on Duncan, ... the engagement of 10 minutes, ... " at the end of which her salvoes were falling short and with a very large spread indeed. "

That is the end of PoW firing in central control.

It is enough to take the PoW gunnery aspect report and read on it that the total main guns fire time was 8 minutes and 58 seconds precisely.

Do you agree that 05.53 + 10 = 06.03 ?

Bye Antonio :D
Antonio, the question that I posed was whether or not W-W gave a precise time for the end of the engagement. Does he?

I have already stated at length that I consider that PoW turned away at ~0605.
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: PoW secondary 5.25inch - 133mm guns at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

of course he did as I wrote you before : 06.13 !

... of course on the same document were he wrote the previous statement, ... he was a real GENIUS !

Did you read him writing that PoW was short of only 1 ( one ) main gun ... :shock:

It does NOT surprise me given his " performances " on First board with 20.000 yards signed ... and after the 30.000 yards with " The Plot " at the Second board.

Incredible ... Houdini could NOT have done anything better ... :wink:

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: PoW secondary 5.25inch - 133mm guns at DS

Post by dunmunro »

Antonio Bonomi wrote:Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

of course he did as I wrote you before : 06.13 !

... of course on the same document were he wrote the previous statement, ... he was a real GENIUS !

Did you read him writing that PoW was short of only 1 ( one ) main gun ... :shock:

It does NOT surprise me given his " performances " on First board with 20.000 yards signed ... and after the 30.000 yards with " The Plot " at the Second board.

Incredible ... Houdini could NOT have done anything better ... :wink:

Bye Antonio :D
Antonio, you seem to have a problem understanding that in the analogue age, without digital timing and "black boxes" that it was very difficult to make accurate and consistent reports, since even reports from the same ships would often vary considerably in timing certain events (example: PE's gunnery and torpedo reports) making it the Captain and Admiral's tasks in resolving all the conflicting data. I note that you are also reluctant to accept PoW's AFCT timings for a hit on Pow at ~ 0559:10 and her 5.25in open fire times, ranges, and cease fire after 3 salvos...perhaps you can begin to understand W-W and Tovey's problems in resolving all the reports.

So W-W gave 0613 and the 3 RN ship's war diaries state 0611-0614...this seems, then, to be where Tovey derived his 0613.
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: PoW secondary 5.25inch - 133mm guns at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,


of course ... all innocent " happy campers " ... using the Prinz Eugen cease A/A fire time ... for the POW retreat ... CONGRATULATIONS !

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
dunmunro
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Re: PoW secondary 5.25inch - 133mm guns at DS

Post by dunmunro »

Antonio Bonomi wrote:Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,


of course ... all innocent " happy campers " ... using the Prinz Eugen cease A/A fire time ... for the POW retreat ... CONGRATULATIONS !

Bye Antonio :D
PE's 20.3cm ceasefire was at ~0609 and the final salvos would have landed near PoW at ~0610. Bismarck's 38cm times were probably similar.

However, we have hotly debated the timing of PoW's turn away, despite all the information at our disposal and we are still ~4 minutes apart...
Last edited by dunmunro on Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: PoW secondary 5.25inch - 133mm guns at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

you can keep the time you like, no problems.

I have the Official PoW maps and tracks available and I have no doubt anymore : 06.01 and 30 seconds .

Now I go in vacation on the sea side for some time ... I wish you the best ... :wink:

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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paulcadogan
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Re: PoW secondary 5.25inch - 133mm guns at DS

Post by paulcadogan »

Hello from hot, dusty, drought-stricken Jamaica!

NO! I have not disappeared into oblivion…still here but have been under a lot of pressure with various matters and have truly had NO time to keep up with the discussions here. Have been playing catch-up over the past few days though… and as usual I see things have been “popping”!!

My thoughts:

In all the points and counter points I see no reason to doubt the information presented by McMullen in his report, with the precise linkage of events to salvos or ranges recorded in the TS.

The witness interviews (though fascinating to listen to!) do little or nothing to nail down timings, but they do underline the whirlwind of events that took place in those few minutes.

With regards to Leach’s signals and narrative – obviously the latter is heavily based on the former. But I see something that may be of note: there is a mixing up of the order of the sentences from one to the other.

In the original signal (the Intercepted Cypher Message posted by Antonio), statement that PoW “had 3 14-inch guns in action. Y-turret would not bear” is referring to the period shortly after fire was opened and the ships were on 300 degrees.

But then in the later signal the “3 guns, Y-turret” statement is shifted to after Hood had been fatally hit, completely changing the interpretation. How could this happen? Was it deliberate or did the person transcribing the message make a mistake? How were the signals recorded? The statement is once again correctly placed in Leach’s narrative – with the number of guns corrected to 5 - so it seems to me that the placement in the 0800 signal was indeed a simple transcription error. If it HAD been deliberate, then Leach would have retained the altered placement in his narrative.

(see page 5 for those references)

To me, the only thing Leach did in his narrative that suggests a veiled attempt to cover himself was his omission of a specific time for the ship turning away – a rather glaring omission indeed. This left it open to interpretation from the track charts, but the statement by WW, accepted by Tovey provided the incorrect 0613.

The aft HACS director situation is VERY interesting. We have a serious contradiction as to which director – port or starboard - was hit by splinters. Remember it is very easy to go “reciprocal” and say something is on the left, when it was in fact on the right. Just like Jasper, observing “port side strikes” of Bismarck’s secondary artillery when those would have been “overs” and so obscured from his view – it would be possible, even if unlikely, for the person writing a damage report to make a similar error.

If the starboard aft HACS director was undamaged by splinters, then it suggests the McMullen was” in” on the “conspiracy” too and falsified the GAR to protect Leach (I’d find that very hard to believe!). Unless of course, the real reason the aft starboard director could not function was its uncomfortable proximity to the gun barrels of Y-turret which was firing on a forward bearing. Just imagine what it was like to be so close to 4 14-inch guns firing two semi-salvos per minute! This IS mentioned in PoW’s damage report:
4. Damage from own gun blast was caused as follows: --
(a). Numerous fractured ventilation trunks.
(b). General damage to woodwork and electric light fittings.
(c). Damage to aircraft and hangar fittings. This has been reported on in detail in Appendix 1 to my No. 001.A of 5th June, 1941.
(d). After H.A. Director personnel suffered from effects of blast from Y turret.
The story from the port director may then have simply been “reciprocated” to have been the starboard in McMullen’s mind.

Now I DO feel that some amount of a**-covering WAS done by Leach AND Wake-Walker. I can imagine Leach thinking to himself: “Good God!....... I’m going to have some explaining to do!” when it hit him how precipitously he withdrew after Hood was destroyed – hence the introduction he wrote at the start of his narrative. And WW’s 20,000 yards plus full hull drawings shifted to 30,000 yards and hull-down - to me was something that would be seized upon by any half decent lawyer!

But I have developed the distinct impression, given the extremely poor “covering up” that is evident in the official documentation – with all the clear indicators that some of the timings of events were wrong – that the decision, IF ANY, was eventually taken much higher up – higher than even Tovey.

The Bismarck had been sunk.

"Leave it alone…. In 70 years or so they’ll probably try to figure it out and argue about it at length!” :stubborn: :D

Paul
Qui invidet minor est - He who envies is the lesser man
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: PoW secondary 5.25inch - 133mm guns at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

@Paul: as usual a very balanced and fair analysis from your side, even if I think very unlikely that a mistake was done in the transmission of such an important message... :clap:

You wrote:
"If the starboard aft HACS director was undamaged by splinters, then it suggests the McMullen was” in” on the “conspiracy” too and falsified the GAR to protect Leach"
I would not say that McMullen was actively part of the conspiracy. The GAR is possibly not saying anything incorrect, just omitting something between the deflection triple and the HACS hit, just like the Norfolk gunnery report related to May 24, that was possibly omitting the whole period between the enemy sighting and the last measured distance...... :think:
The reciprocal error, while very well possible at sea, is very unlikely to happen in an otherwise precise damage report written after examination of the ship: the splinters from the hit all went toward the port side of the ship after the explosion of the shell and the severely injured guy was for sure with Hunter-Terry in the port aft director (well on the trajectory of the splinters).

You wrote also:
"But I have developed the distinct impression, given the extremely poor “covering up” that is evident in the official documentation – with all the clear indicators that some of the timings of events were wrong – that the decision, IF ANY, was eventually taken much higher up – higher than even Tovey. "
Absolutely yes! IMHO, Mr Churchill was the one that requested the Court Martial (especially when BS got lost in the Atlantic) and for sure he then decided to celebrate the victory when BS was finally sunk, preventing the "normal" military inquiry to happen for very good wartime reasons.
However, I disagree on one point: the cover up was not poor at all, as it lasted for 73 years (and still someone is believing and writing that PoW retreated at 6:13 while the heavy cruisers had always been out of range)...... :wink:

Bye, Alberto
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Re: PoW secondary 5.25inch - 133mm guns at DS

Post by dunmunro »

Alberto Virtuani wrote:@Paul: as usual a very balanced and fair analysis from your side, even if I think very unlikely that a mistake was done in the transmission of such an important message... :clap:

You wrote:
"If the starboard aft HACS director was undamaged by splinters, then it suggests the McMullen was” in” on the “conspiracy” too and falsified the GAR to protect Leach"
I would not say that McMullen was actively part of the conspiracy. The GAR is possibly not saying anything incorrect, just omitting something between the deflection triple and the HACS hit, just like the Norfolk gunnery report related to May 24, that was possibly omitting the whole period between the enemy sighting and the last measured distance...... :think:
The reciprocal error, while very well possible at sea, is very unlikely to happen in an otherwise precise damage report written after examination of the ship: the splinters from the hit all went toward the port side of the ship after the explosion of the shell and the severely injured guy was for sure with Hunter-Terry in the port aft director (well on the trajectory of the splinters).

You wrote also:
"But I have developed the distinct impression, given the extremely poor “covering up” that is evident in the official documentation – with all the clear indicators that some of the timings of events were wrong – that the decision, IF ANY, was eventually taken much higher up – higher than even Tovey. "
Absolutely yes! IMHO, Mr Churchill was the one that requested the Court Martial (especially when BS got lost in the Atlantic) and for sure he then decided to celebrate the victory when BS was finally sunk, preventing the "normal" military inquiry to happen for very good wartime reasons.
However, I disagree on one point: the cover up was not poor at all, as it lasted for 73 years (and still someone is believing and writing that PoW retreated at 6:13 while the heavy cruisers had always been out of range)...... :wink:

Bye, Alberto
Antonio/Alberto have come up with a theory that:

Leach/W-W/Tovey all feared court martial by Churchill/Pound after Leach's cowardice caused PoW to retreat at Denmark Straits.

Leach then sent deliberately false, and thus criminal, radio messages after the battle and criminally put pressure on his subordinates to falsify their reports of PoW's
damage; Leach's subordinates all agreed to participate in this now completely criminal conspiracy and have kept quiet ever since.

W-W and Tovey, in turn, then covered for Leach by criminally falsifying their own reports to justify Leach's cowardice.

Churchill, Pound, the Admiralty and the UK War Cabinet then criminally covered for Leach after Bismarck was sunk, by refusing to prosecute:

A)Leach's cowardice at DS,
B)Leach's falsifying of reports and his enlisting of his subordinates and his superiors, W-W and Tovey in his criminal enterprise
C) W-W, Tovey and all the other criminal miscreants who formed the core of the RN's line officers

and by subsequently praising Leach for his actions.

So basically, almost the entire RN high command and UK war cabinet formed part of Leach's criminal conspiracy. Of course this also puts into question the RN's entire conduct of the war and potentially exposes the RN for the criminal cowards that they really were. Obviously then, the entire history of the the war at sea must be re-written to expose perfidious Albion's lies especially their claims for victory at sea... :wink:

How could the honest, brave and stalwart KM and RM sailors have ever been beaten by the RN's contemptible band of cowardly, criminal conspirators?

Leach should have done the honourable thing of allowing PoW to be destroyed at DS, instead he cowardly cheated Lutjens of complete victory and thus avoided upsetting the entire strategic balance of the war at sea in the ETO. Leach's cowardice thus prevented the Axis from achieving it's rightful victory! :wink: The RN/UK then launched an enormous conspiracy to cover it all up!

The idea that Leach/W-W would have followed scientific theories of sea warfare and turned away from a superior force to re-engage inside their immune zone can be discounted entirely - only the amateurish Americans and the scientific Teutons and Latins studied such things. True British sailors knew only potentially suicidal, do or die, tactics of attack at all costs...so Leach could only have turned away because he was a coward... :stubborn: and the depth of the conspiracy to cover up Leach's criminal cowardice reveals, once and for all, that the RN was riddled with criminal cowards... :(
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: PoW secondary 5.25inch - 133mm guns at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

@Dunmunro: as opposed to that of Paul's, your one is not really a very balanced post.......

The facts are now quite clear, thanks to Antonio's researches and to all the other members (including you) who contributed to reconstruct this page of history with their own competencies. If they annoy you and you prefer to dream that PoW did not retreat at 6:01:30 and that Norfolk and Suffolk were well over 15 miles distance when enemy was seen, your problem.

Everyone can get to his own conclusions about the military behaviour of a Captain retreating from the fight after receiving one hit with a ship still able to damage the enemy and of a flag officer refusing to engage the same enemy. I have my one and you can keep yours....

From my side, being a fan of the RN and of the RN traditions, I prefer the example given by other officers like Adm. Cunningham (whose statue is in Trafalgar square close to Nelson), Adm. Holland (who bravely fought on Hood without being in his "immunity zone" at all) and the vast majority of the others who did their duty up to the end, contributing to the victory of their country.

BTW, this "immunity zone" is quite a strange concept for a soldier; perhaps we should ask Commander Glasfurd (of HMS Achasta) and Roope (HMS Glowworm) why they engaged Scharnhorst and Hipper as they were not in their immunity zone :clap: or why several British soldiers fighting at Juno beach did not care about their own personal immunity zone...... :clap: . Witch navy teach to its sailors that they should do their duty and be ready to the sacrifice ONLY when inside their "comfortable immunity zone" ?

Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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Re: PoW secondary 5.25inch - 133mm guns at DS

Post by dunmunro »

The idea that Leach/W-W would have followed scientific theories of sea warfare and turned away from a superior force to re-engage inside their immune zone can be discounted entirely - only the amateurish Americans and the scientific Teutons and Latins studied such things. True British sailors knew only potentially suicidal, do or die, tactics of attack at all costs...so Leach could only have turned away because he was a coward... :stubborn: and the depth of the conspiracy to cover up Leach's criminal cowardice reveals, once and for all, that the RN was riddled with criminal cowards... :(
Alberto Virtuani wrote:
From my side, being a fan of the RN and of the RN traditions, I prefer the example given by other officers like....Adm. Holland (who bravely fought on Hood without being in his "immunity zone" at all) and...Commander Glasfurd (of HMS Achasta) and Roope (HMS Glowworm) ....

Bye, Alberto

I rest my case.
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Re: PoW secondary 5.25inch - 133mm guns at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

@Dunmunro:
hi Duncan, you "intentionally" removed from my above examples Adm Cunningham who followed the same traditions and..... did not die in battle.... :wink:
Of course to be a hero in war, means always to take some risks out of the "immunity zone".....

e.g. Adm Cunningham at Cape Matapan was suggested by his staff NOT to engage a possible Italian battleship (Vittorio Veneto) and her destroyers in a night battle turning away with a "blue 4" signal to his squadron when the heavy cruiser Pola was sighted.
He was very angry with them and said he would have sunk whatever was there that very night, ordering a "4 blue" instead and.... getting the most impressive victory at sea in the Mediterranean sinking our poor three heavy cruisers. Who knows what would have happened, had he listened to his "timid" staff..... :clap:

Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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