The one about the Crane Hit

[wadinga]

All,

It is obvious that the detailed damage reports quoted by V Tarrant in his KGV Class battleships are not identical to other reports quoted on the site. Maybe the repairing dockyard wrote one, and some other agency the other.

The description Tarrant quotes is as follows:-

A 15" shell hit the post of the starboard crane. Impact was approximately 10 foot above the Boat Deck level on the top inboard side of the post. A large fragment of the crane post was projected downwards onto the Upper Deck, which was dished to a maximum depth of .75 inches over an area 3.4 ft in diameter. After striking the crane post the shell was deflected upwards and burst against the base of the after funnel. A 5ft hole was ripped in the funnel plating and splinters were showered over the Boat Deck to a distance of 57ft from the point of burst. Splinter damage caused 37 holes in the Boat Deck over an area of 20 sq ft. Splinters that penetrated the Boat Deck killed and wounded men in the Type 284 radar room, while another struck the Upper Deck in the Wardroom and was deflected upwards and out through the side plating of the hull. A large number of electric cables were severed. A large number of splinters passed through the after funnel, damaging the port side engine room exhaust, and the port after 5.25" inch director, severely wounding one of the crew.Two boats stowed on the Boat Deck were destroyed, two were badly damaged and seven lightly damaged. Some were set on fire, but were quickly extinguished. Shell fragments riddled the Walrus, which was about to be launched. Because of the danger of fire from the petrol tanks, the Walrus was jettisoned over the side.

Brooke says in "Alarm Starboard" that the Radar office in which he found the operator with the severed torso was on the Boat deck level with its forward perforated bulkhead looking out onto the Boat Deck.

The other Boat Deck hit was a definite 8" which penetrated the Upper Deck and ended up in the 5.25 handling room.

So the Crane hit generated splinters which killed crew members in the after superstructure, disabled the after HA DCT and destroyed most of the boats, and damaged the Walrus forward of the Aft funnel. Tommy 303 has described the paltry explosive effect of the 15" AP and yet there is all this damage? Also no sign of the actual 15" shell itself?

Sounds a lot like another 8" HE from PG doesn't it? And Coates on the after funnel said it happened before Hood blew up.

All the best

wadinga

[tommy303]

Don't get me wrong--although the detonation of an APC shell is not as big as that for an SAP or HE, the bursting charge is still considerable at 18 or so kilos, or roughly three times the bursting charge of a 20,3cm base fuzed HE shell. The damage and splinter effect from the shell burst from the hit on the boat crane has all the hallmarks of a good order detonation of a 38cm APC. In addition, analysis of the shell fragments and portions of the driving band indicated the shell was a 38cm.

[dunmunro]

Don't get me wrong--although the detonation of an APC shell is not as big as that for an SAP or HE, the bursting charge is still considerable at 18 or so kilos, or roughly three times the bursting charge of a 20,3cm base fuzed HE shell. The damage and splinter effect from the shell burst from the hit on the boat crane has all the hallmarks of a good order detonation of a 38cm APC. In addition, analysis of the shell fragments and portions of the driving band indicated the shell was a 38cm.

Which begs the question of when the hit occurred and what was the "heavy hit aft" mentioned by Leach and what was the hit recorded by the AFCT team just after salvo 12?

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

the hit was a 380 mm ( 15 inches ) by Bismarck according to the PoW official damage documentation available.

Since it was fired by Bismarck, ... and Bismarck shifted fire to HMS PoW after having sunk the Hood after 06.00, ... than this hit could have occurred only after that time.

In fact the most reliable witness on board PoW, Ltnt A. Hunter-Terry, having a midshipman carefully taking the battle time, placed it after 06.01, correctly, ... right on the spot.

Also here, ... no room for fantasy theories ... real shell fragments, ... and a reliable time.

Bye Antonio

[dunmunro]

Hello everybody,

the hit was a 380 mm ( 15 inches ) by Bismarck according to the PoW official damage documentation available.

Since it was fired by Bismarck, ... and Bismarck shifted fire to HMS PoW after having sunk the Hood after 06.00, ... than this hit could have occurred only after that time.

In fact the most reliable witness on board PoW, Ltnt A. Hunter-Terry, having a midshipman carefully taking the battle time, placed it after 06.01, correctly, ... right on the spot.

Also here, ... no room for fantasy theories ... real shell fragments, ... and a reliable time.

Bye Antonio

OK and the hit recorded by the AFCT team just after salvo 12?

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

the hit recorded by the AFCT after salvo 12 and reported into the PoW gunnery report is the real " mystery " about this battle.

It could have ben only a 203 mm by Prinz Eugen or a 150 mm by Bismarck secondary anyhow.

We do not have enough details to check this out unfortunately.

Bye Antonio

[Alberto Virtuani]

Antonio Bonomi wrote: "the hit recorded by the AFCT after salvo 12 and reported into the PoW gunnery report is the real " mystery " about this battle. It could have ben only a 203 mm by Prinz Eugen or a 150 mm by Bismarck secondary anyhow. We do not have enough details to check this out unfortunately."

Agree. Does anybody knows where the AFCT was located on board of PoW (which deck and frame) ? Tarrant doesn't describe in detail the Firing Control of KGV class and my plans from the NMM (due to their cost...) are limited to the superstructure up to the main deck.

Perhaps another hit can be found in proximity of the AFCT with a compatible angle of entry, keeping in mind that some hits came on board underwater or close to waterline, thus subject to a "limited" deflection in their trajectory.....

Bye, Alberto

[dunmunro]

Antonio Bonomi wrote: "the hit recorded by the AFCT after salvo 12 and reported into the PoW gunnery report is the real " mystery " about this battle. It could have ben only a 203 mm by Prinz Eugen or a 150 mm by Bismarck secondary anyhow. We do not have enough details to check this out unfortunately."

Agree. Does anybody knows where the AFCT was located on board of PoW (which deck and frame) ? Tarrant doesn't describe in detail the Firing Control of KGV class and my plans from the NMM (due to their cost...) are limited to the superstructure up to the main deck.

Perhaps another hit can be found in proximity of the AFCT with a compatible angle of entry, keeping in mind that some hits came on board underwater or close to waterline, thus subject to a "limited" deflection in their trajectory.....

Bye, Alberto

Tarrant, p.-18-19-21: "27. Main armament Transmitting Station"

"Transmitting Station" is RN nomenclature for the central firecontrol computing station which contains the AFCT.

As you can see the TS is located in a very heavily armoured part of the ship and page 12 shows a drawing at frame 133 and the TS would be located just forward of there on the upper platform deck. No hits came near the TS.

[Alberto Virtuani]

Many thanks Duncan, I saw it on Tarrant ! And you are right: no hit was close to the TS that is not aft anyway.

Therefore we have 2 mysterious hits: the heavy hit declared by Leach after Hood explosion and the TS fuse failure at salvo 12. I suspect the second one can just be an effect of PoW own guns concussion more than a direct hit or possibly a near miss (8" or 5,9") exploding under water close to the ship.

Bye, Alberto

[wadinga]

Hello Tommy,

You have said

good order detonation of a 38cm APC. In addition, analysis of the shell fragments and portions of the driving band indicated the shell was a 38cm.

Antono has said

the hit was a 380 mm ( 15 inches ) by Bismarck according to the PoW official damage documentation available.

Gentlemen, can you give me a quote location for the 38cm driving band information? As I said at the head of the thread, there seems to be two different damage reports for each hit. Oh by the way, in my book, actual shell fragments or a cookie cutter hole are evidence of calibre, some guy in a dockyard guessing that the damage looks "bad enough" to be 380mm is not evidence. Then saying because it was 380mm it must have been after Hood blew up is unwarranted extrapolation.

Tommy, based on your considerable knowledge, do you really think a "glancing blow" on the crane head is going to activate the AP fuse, which is supposed to withstand punching through belt armour before going off? Is the distance between the crane head and immediately aft of the funnel the right distance given velocity and fuse performance?

Coates says this hit, which threw him down, happened before Hood blew up, whilst PoW was turning to port. Hunter-Terry's friend's timing is no more reliable than Leach's of 06:02 for the CP hit. These are not computer operations linked to a central chronometer, there no UTC time-stamps, these are men making rough notes whilst Death shrieks around their ears.

All the best

wadinga

[tommy303]

Hi Wadinga,

It really wasn't a glancing blow. From photographs of the crane, the shell appears to have torn through some major structural elements of the crane's machinery platform with its counterweights, slew motors, etc. It would certainly be possible for the sudden check in velocity to cause fuze initiation.

[dunmunro]

The fuze delay of a KM 38cm AP round was about .03 seconds, IIRC.

Does anyone know the fuze delay of a 20.3cm base fuzed HE?

The apparent fuze delay of the crane hit was on the order of .016 secs.

[Alberto Virtuani]

@Duncan: hi, sorry I have no clue about the fuze delay of an 8".

However it exploded when passing close to the after funnel (almost amidship), thus travelling some 15 to 18 meters after impacting the starboard crane. Assuming a striking velocity of around 600 meters / sec , this gives almost the fuze delay of an AP shell. Where does the 0.016 sec comes from ?

Bye, Alberto

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

you wrote :

Then saying because it was 380mm it must have been after Hood blew up is unwarranted extrapolation.

Hunter-Terry's friend's timing is no more reliable than Leach's of 06:02 for the CP hit.

Bye Antonio

[dunmunro]

@Duncan: hi, sorry I have no clue about the fuze delay of an 8".

However it exploded when passing close to the after funnel (almost amidship), thus travelling some 15 to 18 meters after impacting the starboard crane. Assuming a striking velocity of around 600 meters / sec , this gives almost the fuze delay of an AP shell. Where does the 0.016 sec comes from ?

Bye, Alberto

The distance from the crane to the detonation point is about 30ft (~9 meters), based upon measurements from scale drawings of a KGV class ship.