Bismarck in place of PoW

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Bismarck in place of PoW

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:21 pm

Alecsandros wrote: "I disagree. Hood exploded and Bismarck shifted fire immediately to Prince. The Prince turned to disengage at the same time Bismarck turned to avoid torpedoes.
Bismarck hit at least 3 times, while Prince 0 times. And they were both turning hard."
Hi, all BS hits on PoW happened before 6:03, the last hit on board was around 6:02:30. When BS turned away (between 6:03 and 6:04) to avoid torpedoes, she never hit anymore. PG never hit anymore as well after tuning to avoid torpedoes at 6:04.

I agree with Paul and Duncan, hits on board did not affected much PoW gunnery (as they didn't affect too much BS gunnery as well), the turn away did as PoW never hit BS after 6:00 when she had to avoid Hood wreck.

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Re: Bismarck in place of PoW

Post by paulcadogan » Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:58 pm

alecsandros wrote:I disagree.
Alec, if you read PoW's Gunnery Aspects Report, you will see that the points where her salvos developed wide spreads - 11 and 12, the 17 and 18. The last two are specifically noted as being when the ship was under helm and heeling in her turn away. I have a sneaky suspicion that 11 and 12 mark the point of her avoidance maneuver when Hood exploded (remember my theory of Hood blowing up before 0600 - though I know Antonio does not agree!). She straddled and hit with 13 while under Prinz Eugen's fire (a hit was felt at salvo 12).

Then she came under Bismarck's fire.

Sure shell splashes from incoming shells can interfere with spotting and optical range taking, but McMullen did not attribute and of his non-straddles to difficulty in spotting. He does mention the ship turning though...

Remember the GO is closed up in the DCT, very focused on his job...so unless hit directly (c.f. the Baron in the final battle), or some other hit that affects FC...he just keeps on keeping on....

And Alberto is right...Bismarck's turn away was after PoW had ceased centrally controlled shooting, and she scored no hits in that phase or after - neither did PG.

Paul
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Re: Bismarck in place of PoW

Post by alecsandros » Tue Mar 18, 2014 6:19 am

paulcadogan wrote:
And Alberto is right...Bismarck's turn away was after PoW had ceased centrally controlled shooting, and she scored no hits in that phase or after - neither did PG.

Paul
That's right Paul,
That doesn't change the fact that Bismarck hit her 3 times without being hit in return at that time. Prinz Eugen hit 4 times.

At the same time she was receiving 7 hits, 8 salvos fired by the Prince with zero straddles.

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RF
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Re: Bismarck in place of PoW

Post by RF » Sun Mar 23, 2014 6:29 pm

dunmunro wrote:
However, lets reverse the situation:

Hood and Bismarck (RN force with Holland on Hood) engage PoW and Prinz Eugen (KM Force with Lutjens on PoW). Bismarck's radar is inoperative and her last turret was accepted from the contractors on April 27 1941.
Hood fires at PE as per the historical situation. Bismarck scores 3 hits on PoW - one forward at the WL, one amidships under the WL, and one through a boat that does no apparent damage. The hit forward would probably cause some flooding (but no loss of fuel), the hit amidships would probably strike the main belt and do very little damage as well.
Hood blows up at ~0600. Bismarck is immediately taken under fire by PoW and PE, while Bismarck's gunners hampered by the violent manoeuvres to avoid Hood lose their FC solution. Lindeman is now faced with taking on two obviously efficient opponents that have suffered no apparent damage, and Bismarck is hit by 7 14in and 20cm rounds in two minutes. What does Lindeman do?
I find this scenario difficult to understand.

Firstly why would Hood blow up? Yes it can happen from a 14 inch shell from POW but the chances of that happening in this scenario is far less than in the actual DS battle. I think from the detail here it is far more likely that it is Prinz Eugen that blows up from a direct hit from Hood.

Secondly POW, even worked up fully is highly unlikely to score 7 14 inch hits inside two minutes? The Hood Bismarck combination I doubt would be operating as one firing unit as Holland did, so when POW has to shift fire it isn't as straightforward as you imply..

Coming back to the scenario posed directly, with my second point caveat,if Hood blows up and Bismarck is left to fight it out with POW and Prinz Eugen my money would be on Bismarck. If I was Lindemann (with no order constraints like ''no unnescerry risks'' that bedevilled the KM) I would concentrate all fire on Prinz Eugen with the express purpose of quickly blowing that ship out of the water. Then I would switch all fire to POW. It is likely that Bismarck would take substantial hits from POW during such a period, but not enough damage to seriously imperil Bismarck.
Such an action would be long drawn out, probably about two hours, so the period immediately after Hood blowing up becomes totally insignificant.
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Re: Bismarck in place of PoW

Post by dunmunro » Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:24 pm

RF wrote:
dunmunro wrote:
However, lets reverse the situation:

Hood and Bismarck (RN force with Holland on Hood) engage PoW and Prinz Eugen (KM Force with Lutjens on PoW). Bismarck's radar is inoperative and her last turret was accepted from the contractors on April 27 1941.
Hood fires at PE as per the historical situation. Bismarck scores 3 hits on PoW - one forward at the WL, one amidships under the WL, and one through a boat that does no apparent damage. The hit forward would probably cause some flooding (but no loss of fuel), the hit amidships would probably strike the main belt and do very little damage as well.
Hood blows up at ~0600. Bismarck is immediately taken under fire by PoW and PE, while Bismarck's gunners hampered by the violent manoeuvres to avoid Hood lose their FC solution. Lindeman is now faced with taking on two obviously efficient opponents that have suffered no apparent damage, and Bismarck is hit by 7 14in and 20cm rounds in two minutes. What does Lindeman do?
I find this scenario difficult to understand.

Firstly why would Hood blow up? Yes it can happen from a 14 inch shell from POW but the chances of that happening in this scenario is far less than in the actual DS battle. I think from the detail here it is far more likely that it is Prinz Eugen that blows up from a direct hit from Hood.

Secondly POW, even worked up fully is highly unlikely to score 7 14 inch hits inside two minutes? The Hood Bismarck combination I doubt would be operating as one firing unit as Holland did, so when POW has to shift fire it isn't as straightforward as you imply..

Coming back to the scenario posed directly, with my second point caveat,if Hood blows up and Bismarck is left to fight it out with POW and Prinz Eugen my money would be on Bismarck. If I was Lindemann (with no order constraints like ''no unnescerry risks'' that bedevilled the KM) I would concentrate all fire on Prinz Eugen with the express purpose of quickly blowing that ship out of the water. Then I would switch all fire to POW. It is likely that Bismarck would take substantial hits from POW during such a period, but not enough damage to seriously imperil Bismarck.
Such an action would be long drawn out, probably about two hours, so the period immediately after Hood blowing up becomes totally insignificant.
At the range that the fatal hit on Hood occured, the RN 14in should have been able to penetrate Hood's armour.

I stated: "... 7 14in and 20cm rounds in two minutes...".

You also have to remember that in this scenario Bismarck has no FC radar, one defective gun in a forward turret and much less work up time.

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Re: Bismarck in place of PoW

Post by alecsandros » Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:21 am

dunmunro wrote: At the range that the fatal hit on Hood occured, the RN 14in should have been able to penetrate Hood's armour.
... It was possible to go through the belt, but unlikely given the obliquity. An underwater hit might cause heavy daamge, but the fuze delay was to short to ensure trajectory all the way to the magazines, or near them.

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Re: Bismarck in place of PoW

Post by RF » Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:00 pm

dunmunro wrote:
You also have to remember that in this scenario Bismarck has no FC radar, one defective gun in a forward turret and much less work up time.
This is why I find it difficult to understand your reverse scenario.

I don't think that Bismarck and POW are simply interchangeable, you cannot equate POW's turrets with Bismarck's turrets. I don't recall the KM having the sort of problems with their 15 inch gun turrets that the RN had with the KGV class turrets, I doubt that Lindemann and certainly Lutjens would have allowed Bismarck to sail with defective main armament. Even if Bismarck did have a defective gun then that problem would have been tackled by the German gunners differently from the RN gunners simply because the turrets were different.

The only way to properly reverse the scenario is to completely reverse the sides for all ships and not just two. If Raeder had Hood and POW then he and Lutjens would not have them sailed without POW being properly worked up as Rheinubung by its nature required properly prepared ships.
By that I mean Hood would have also have had its deck armour re-inforced so that it was able to take part in a heavy action. I would also think the Germans would have POW as flag and lead ship.
The whole DS battle would have been fought very differently because of the different mission and operational requirements of the four ships. Indeed I think it probable there would be no DS battle because Suffolk and Norfolk could both have been sunk by the available German firepower from 18 heavy guns.
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