May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

[Dave Saxton]

This is tough! Without concrete info on the movements of each individual destroyer, which may never be obtained, it may not be solved.

Paul

And that's okay. A non solution is better than the wrong solution.

[alecsandros]

... One thought:

IF HMS Electra's distance from HMS Hood at 6:00 was 97km (as some sources indicate), I guess we could draw an arc corresponding to the northward distances of Electra in relationship to Hood's sinking position...

Then, from that arc, we could draw another one, depicting Electra moving at 25kts (I think) from 2:15 to 6:00.

It's not perfect, the end result would be an area (possibly quite large), and not an exact coordonate...

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ Paul Cadogan & Dave Saxton,

I would agree with you : a non solution is better than an incorrect solution.

What I wanted to position, ... as I did, ... was the Norfolk track relative to the PoW/Hood track as best as I could, ... and I am very satisfied about it right now.

My initial doubt was about the 02.29 Norfolk message being realtive to Capt. Leach confirmation on his report that it was PoW and that is clearly not the case.

Having solved that doubt and after having correctly positioned the Norfolk track using the 02.29 and the 05.41 checkpoints compared to PoW track, ... it remained to be solved that 02.29 Norfolk spotting of a " large vessel " that cannot be the PoW, obviously cannot be Prinz Eugen or Bismarck and surely not the Suffolk very far away on that moment.

Obviously at this point it remained to be deeply analyzed the destroyer tracks as we did but it seems that nothing conclusive can be reached.

Well at least we have made a bit more clear what happened on that area at 02.29, ... which is the " key checkpoint " of that night, ... and if anybody will have any idea or new inputs, ... the references should be now clear enough to discuss about it.

@ Alecsandros,

Good idea, ... I will try to make that raw calculation now, ... assuming that Electra was trying to reach the Norfolk 06.37 communicated point for Hood position and using the Electra course indicated on " The Plot ".

Bye Antonio

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ All,

Alecsandros made a very interesting question :

One thought : If HMS Electra's distance from HMS Hood at 6:00 was 97km (as some sources indicate), I guess we could draw an arc corresponding to the northward distances of Electra in relationship to Hood's sinking position...

Then, from that arc, we could draw another one, depicting Electra moving at 25kts (I think) from 2:15 to 6:00.

It's not perfect, the end result would be an area (possibly quite large), and not an exact coordinate...

First easy guess will be : if the destroyers including Electra was sailing north for one hour ( until 03.00 ) and back after to the same position ( at 04.00 ), basically she lost 25+25 sea miles = 50 sea miles to be back where she left Hood and PoW and after having to catch up on them, ... with same speed, ... obviously she was still at 50 sea miles two hours after at 06.00 when Hood exploded.

This is what the Wikipedia link state : " HMS Electra and other destroyers were about 60 nautical miles (111 km ) away at the time. Upon hearing that Hood had sunk, ... "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Electra_(H27)

On " The Plot " Pinchin placed the Electra and Echo at 30 sea miles from the Hood sinking position at 07.00.

You can easily verify here in where that distance is just half of the distance between the 2 traced parallels, so 30 sea miles.

http://hmshood.com/history/denmarkstrait/S&Nplot.gif

Here the coordinate details :

Electra_0700_01.jpg (23.7 KiB) Viewed 1154 times

But when I draw them on the map in scale, ... with a reasonable comeback course, 200°; 220°, 235° ... at 25 knots only, ... I arrive very close at 06.00 already ... ... so they must have run a different course than I thought ... " loosing " other 15 sea miles at least ... in order to be where " The Plot " traced them at 07.00 at 30 sea miles from the Hood sinking position they finally reached at 08.00 apparently ...

Electra_0700_02.jpg (88.21 KiB) Viewed 1154 times

Bye Antonio

[paulcadogan]

Hi Antonio,

First up, I know, very happily, that you and Alberto are both in northern Italy and so are personally unaffected by the terrible earthquakes that have rocked Italy, but still, just a word of sympathy for the loss off life and property. Wishing Italy all the best for the recovery effort.

As far as Electra and Echo are concerned, remember the destroyers were ordered to spread at 15 mile intervals. For them to have arrived at Hood's sinking site together, they would have had to rendezvous at some point. Also, we do not know which of the four points along that 45 mile spread each ship was.

Those would be factors in the timing of their arrival.

Paul

[alecsandros]

@Antonio

In this proposed scenario (possibility), You need to compensate for the original (2:15) direction of movement of the destroyers.

That is because, IF they received the order to "spread at 15 miles intervals" , and IF they did plan to execute that order,
THEN
the 4 destroyers would require some time, and consequently travel some distance until actualy obtaining 15 miles distance between each other.

---

The simplest example would be with the 4 DDs being exactly NORTH at 2:15. At that moment, IF the spread angle would be 30 degrees (so 90 degrees angle between the 3 intervals = 30 + 30 + 30 degrees between the DDs), THEN the westward-most and eastern-most DDs would be required to travel 48km each in order to position themselves at 24km distance from the immediately close DD. 48km at 25kts (46,30km/h) means some more then 1 hour...

THEN, at , say, 3:20, the 4 DDs are at 15 miles from each other, thus spread out in a 45 miles line, combing the sea northwards...

That means they stop their lateral drift (as distance between them has been reached) , and proceed north... for about 3 hours until receiving the radio signal from Norfolk... And hurrying southwards.

3 hours steaming north at 25kts apparently implies about 75 miles traveled "upwards" on the map.

---

Which doesn't add up, apparently, with the 60 miles distance between Electra and Hood time of Norfolk signal.

---

BUT, my speculations would be:
1) the destroyers were not doing 25kts measured on the sea surface, but a smaller speed, owing to sea state. For example, if they were doing 20kts... then time to get into position goes up to around 90 minutes (to achieve 24km interval), then going north at 20kts for 2.5 hours means 50 miles covered.

2) the destroyers did not follow exactly on the order. They firstly followed the battleships southwards , and after some time (10 minutes ?) , seeing some of them not complying, the ordered was re-sent to them from Prince of Wales, and only then did they start spreading out to comb the sea, at perhaps 2:30 or so, and in a state of dissaray (as some DDs may have already started going north, while others were lagging behind the battleships - and thus soem of them had to wait for the others.. giving a delay). Then, I doubt they could actualy achieve perfect 15miles itnerval between them. HOw could they when visiblity was 5 miles ? So actualy distances may have varied wildly..... Finally, after spreading out.... at what they hoped to be 15 miles, the search pattern may have been different from a straight line northwards. It could be a zig zag, or a spiral... or anything else.

My thoughts...

Best regards,

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ Paul Cadogan,

thanks for your nice words, ... see you had that terrible hurricane, ... we are having heartquakes quite often lately, ... Italy is a risk area from thsi stand point especially in the central mountain region ( Appennin mountains ). Me and Alberto living in Milano, in the North cetral prairie reagion ar elucky and not affected. The problem for those unfortunate persons now is that winter is coming and they must leave their very old houses ( sometimes more than 1.000 years old houses ) on 1.500 meters altitude and move temporarly ( hopefully ) close to the sea side, ... until everyting is taken care of and the houses being rebuilt there where their towns one time prodly have been built by their relatives.

I see your points and they do make a lot of sense to me.

As far as Electra and Echo are concerned, remember the destroyers were ordered to spread at 15 mile intervals. For them to have arrived at Hood's sinking site together, they would have had to rendezvous at some point. Also, we do not know which of the four points along that 45 mile spread each ship was.
Those would be factors in the timing of their arrival.

@ Alecsandros,

same for you, I see your inputs and they make sense too, ... so I will try to use a different approach on this now.

@ All,

here you can see how it will appear a reconstruction backwards at 30 knots ( assuming this was the speed they were sailing after having received the order to move to South West to rejoin the BC1 squadron ), ... from point C at 07.00 until point B at 04.00.

Electra_0700_04.jpg (86.02 KiB) Viewed 1127 times

I obviously used the only known geographical point at 07.00 ( from The Plot - Point C ) and traced backwards at 30 knots ( ? ) their tracks until 04.00 ( so 90 sea miles - Point B ) on a North position from where they got separated from BC1.


What remain to be undertood as you correctly highlighted to me, is what they did from 02.03 ( Point A ) until 04.00 ( Point B ), and we know they sailed North ( either incorrectly initially following the warhips at first or not ) dividing each others ( and it took some time too )

As Alecsandros wrote :

The simplest example would be with the 4 DDs being exactly NORTH at 2:15. At that moment, IF the spread angle would be 30 degrees (so 90 degrees angle between the 3 intervals = 30 + 30 + 30 degrees between the DDs), THEN the westward-most and eastern-most DDs would be required to travel 48km each in order to position themselves at 24km distance from the immediately close DD. 48km at 25kts (46,30km/h) means some more then 1 hour...

... to be ordered ( by whom ? when ? ) some time after ( should I assume soon after 02.56 when the enemy position was confirmed by HMS Suffolk ? As logic should dictate ... ) to come back to South West.

Here Alecsandros example does have different assumptions :

THEN, at , say, 3:20, the 4 DDs are at 15 miles from each other, thus spread out in a 45 miles line, combing the sea northwards...
That means they stop their lateral drift (as distance between them has been reached) , and proceed north... for about 3 hours until receiving the radio signal from Norfolk... And hurrying southwards.
3 hours steaming north at 25kts apparently implies about 75 miles traveled "upwards" on the map.

At that point in time ( to be clearly defined ) they re-grouped and after they started sailing together to South West to rejoin the BC1 squadron warships.

Not to forget logic and correct Alecsandros speculations and thoughts :

BUT, my speculations would be:

1) the destroyers were not doing 25kts measured on the sea surface, but a smaller speed, owing to sea state. For example, if they were doing 20kts... then time to get into position goes up to around 90 minutes (to achieve 24km interval), then going north at 20kts for 2.5 hours means 50 miles covered.

2) the destroyers did not follow exactly on the order. They firstly followed the battleships southwards , and after some time (10 minutes ?) , seeing some of them not complying, the ordered was re-sent to them from Prince of Wales, and only then did they start spreading out to comb the sea, at perhaps 2:30 or so, and in a state of dissaray (as some DDs may have already started going north, while others were lagging behind the battleships - and thus soem of them had to wait for the others.. giving a delay). Then, I doubt they could actualy achieve perfect 15miles itnerval between them. HOw could they when visiblity was 5 miles ? So actualy distances may have varied wildly..... Finally, after spreading out.... at what they hoped to be 15 miles, the search pattern may have been different from a straight line northwards. It could be a zig zag, or a spiral... or anything else.

My thoughts...

Does it sound more logic ?

Bye Antonio

[alecsandros]

Is it certain that they stopped moving north before receiving the Norfolk radio signal ?

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ Alecsandros,

well, ... this is a very good question, ... but what sense do you see for them to keep on sailing North, ... after the 02.47 when the Suffolk radio communicated that one ship was spotted South of her radio communicated geographical position the destroyers can refer to :

Suffolk_0247.jpg (22.17 KiB) Viewed 1122 times

... even if it was NOT clearly stated above that they were surely the 2 enemy warships they were looking for ... once immediately followed by the Suffolk confirmation at 02.56 that they were surely the enemy 2 warships they were supposed to search for while sailing North and where a long way to the South West of them being re-discovered by the Suffolk :

Suffolk_0256.jpg (21.56 KiB) Viewed 1122 times

By 03.00 for Commander May the overall situation should have been very clear ...

If they were NOT in condition to receive the Suffolk messages ( as I doubt ) by themselves and act accordingly after having communicated it to BC1 ... surely somebody was supposed ( on BC1 ) to order them to turn back and join to the South West the BC1 Squadron warships ...

Is this logic enough ...

Bye Antonio

[alecsandros]

Well,
Unfortunately we do not know if they received Suffolk's message at all, we're not even certain if (all of them) actualy received and complied to BC1 order to spread at 15 miles northwards... One option that I'm contemplating.... is that HMS Electra did not received/complied to that order at all..... she simply remained behind the heavy force, unable to keep up with the speed and weather. At such visibility of 3 to 5 miles, there would be only minutes in which lookouts from Hood/PoW would have Electra on their sights... and after that nothing could be seen of her. And, if exercising radio silence... the battleships could not know Electra was still trailing them...

And if so... maybe Electra kept the 200 course... and when Norfolk sent the message of Hood sunk... Electra was somewhere to the east (or north-east) of the sinking position (and not northwards as we usualy imagine things to have been).

Maybe...

[Cag]

Hi All

May i firstly add my condolences to those of Mr Cadogan as regards the earthquakes in Italy which seems to be happening more often these days.

Just a quick update, I tried a couple of times to resolve the PoW track but still ended up about 10nm out from Leach's 15nm Northwest point of Suffolks 02.56 enemy position (probably not allowing enough for weather conditions).

So rather than plot her position from her last log entry at 20.00 on the 23rd of 63°20`N 27°00` W I've taken a leaf out of Antonios book and just used Leach's enemy position plotted from Suffolks 02.56 report and placed PoW track position of 02.56 on that point.

It seems to show that Leach was correct that according to his plot the vessel seen at 02.29 would appear to be PoW although Antonio has proved otherwise by calculating the correct positions. It also appears that Norfolk's message at 01.45 was important as this would have placed Bismarck very roughly 15nm from PoW at this time again roughly on a bearing of 334° from BC1.

Holland did a canny bit of work as then altering course after 02.00 to run with the enemies estimated course and asking PoW to search 20° to 140° with 284 probed that exact area and the area into which Bismarck would likely have sailed.

Also according to Norfolk's plot thanks to her estimation at 01.45 Bismarck should have been due west of her at 02.29 (269°) and so the ship at 298° was most likely to have been assumed to be Suffolk as the position of the BC1 force was unknown.

Thanks to Antonios excellent work we have a good idea where the ships were in actuality and can understand what was occurring.

Hi Alecsandros hope you're well the destroyers are a bit of a problem, PoW log mentions the detachment of Anthony and Antelope at noon on the 23rd to refuel but has no mention of the detachment after 02.00 only her alteration of course at 02.03 to 200° or how long this took.

Best wishes as always
Cag.

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ Alecsandros,

surely the radio silence ordered played a BIG role on all this, ... but only the for the BC1 warships, ... and their destroyers ( I assume until the 05.37 PoW enemy interception report, ... or the 05.43 by Hood at the most ) not for the Norfolk and the Suffolk everybody was able to listen to ... and to refer to.

If the Electra ( and the other 3 + 2 refuelled destroyers ) waited until the Norfolk 06.37 radio message :

Norfolk_0637.jpg (10.35 KiB) Viewed 1112 times

... to turn South West from a North direction course, ... there is no way in this world that they could have been ( Electra and Echo ) where " The Plot " is positioning them at 07.00 ( 07.01 ) on the geographical coordinates 63°47'North - 31°11' West.

Electra_0701.jpg (10.77 KiB) Viewed 1112 times

So I assume that at a certain point ... can be 02.56, ... or 03.20, ... they turned from a North course to a South West course on their own initiative ( BC1 was still in radio silence mode ) ... well before the 05.37 PoW enemy interception report ... and long before the Norfolk one either at 06.15 or the 06.37 asking them to do it.

It is very nteresting to be noticed that at 07.01, ... we surely had 3 divided groups of 2 destroyers each, ... Electra with Echo rushing at 32 knots to reach the area from North East on course 217°, ... Antelope with Anthony coming back in the area from South East at 28 knots on course 330° after having refuelled in Iceland, ... and Achates with Icarus somewhere to North East of the Hood sinking area but not anymore with the Electra and the Echo, ... probably following them from behind ...

Antelope_0655.jpg (13.24 KiB) Viewed 1112 times

Now to relate the fact that Electra and Echo were actually divided from Achates and Icarus is VERY important if referred to the previous possible occurrences when they splitted from BC1 and went North after 02.03 ...

Interesting now is this statement from HMS Icarus Wikipedia :

Upon hearing that Hood had sunk, Electra raced to the area, arriving about 2 hours after Hood went down. They were expecting to find many survivors, and rigged scrambling nets and heaving lines, and placed life belts on the deck where they could be quickly thrown in. From the 94 officers and 1,321 ratings aboard Hood, just three survivors were found. Electra rescued them, and continued searching. Shortly thereafter, Icarus and Anthony joined in the search, and the three ships searched the area for more survivors. No more were found, only driftwood, debris, and a desk drawer filled with documents. After several hours searching, they left the area.

If Icarus and Anthony joined Electra shortly thereafter to search for survivors, that means the ALL the other 2 divided destroyer groups arrived shortly after the Electra/Echo group in the Hood sinking area one after the other, ... confirming that Achates and Icarus where just following Electra and Echo from close behind ... but were NOT sailing together ...

Interesting to notice too, ... is that one destroyer from each different group searched in the Hood sinking area, ... while the Echo ( was with Electra ) ... the Antelope ( was with Anthony ) ... and the Achates ( was with Icarus ) ... have been probably immediately assigned to a different task ( Echo to escort PoW later on, ... Achates to escort the Victorious ... after ).

Bye Antonio

[alecsandros]

... to turn South West from a North direction course, ... there is no way in this world that they could have been ( Electra and Echo ) where " The Plot " is positioning them at 07.00 ( 07.01 ) on the geographical coordinates 63°47'North - 31°11' West.

Yes,
that's right,
BUT take a look at the possibility of ELECTRA (only her) to NOT go northwards at all... And simply trailing Hood/PoW... And lagging behind them... rapidly dissapearing in the night... ANd not complying to the order at all... And mantaining 200 course until 6:37...
My estimate if that is true, is that Electra at 25kts would arive at around 50 miles from Hood's sinking point.
But if Electra traveled slower, on average, at say 20-22kts between 2:03 (2:15 ?) and 6:37, it is very likely she was around 60 miles (east) of Hood's sinking.

Maybe.

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ Alecsandros,


interesting theory ... but please keep in mind the radio communicated Electra position at 07.01, ... being 63°47' North - 31°11' West, ... her course being 217°, so to South West, ... and her speed at 32 knots ,... and she was in company with HMS Echo.

Consequently HMS Electra cannot be to South East of the Hood and PoW position, ... where the Antelope and Anthony in reality where coming up after refuelling on course 330° at 28 knots ...

Bye Antonio

[alecsandros]

@Antonio
Ah, that's right :)
I forgot about that meassage...

What would be the distance between the coordonates from that message and Hood's wreck ?