Hood's sinking: the timing of that fatal hit

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Byron Angel
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Re: Hood's sinking: the timing of that fatal hit

Post by Byron Angel »

..... I believe that the development of the marine chronometer made it possible to determine at sea accurate estimates of longitude rather than latitude.

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Hood's sinking: the timing of that fatal hit

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Byron Angel,

you are absolutely right !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longitude

what is interesting to know now is how they plotted their own position ( Dead Reckoning ) and using which type of plot/maps to check their navigation on WW 2.

Which maps they used as plot ? Which projection ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map_projection

Of course I know the answer, do you ?

This argument, is very important to understand what really happened ... :wink:

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
culverin
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Re: Hood's sinking: the timing of that fatal hit

Post by culverin »

Maps are not used at sea.

They are called charts.
Chart because you chart both your previous course and your planned or expected course. Also the known or expected positions of other ships of interest.
In the RN these were, and still are, fully produced by the hydrographic department. RN at sea, mainly civilians ashore.
Taking accurate visual fixes at sea, both during day and night was essential and were taken as frequently as practical, you must have 2 known points identified on the chart, ideally 3, and as many degrees apart as practical. Prominent land features, lighthouses, chimneys and so on.
Navigation in the open sea out of sight of land at night is simple, provided you can see the stars. 1 sextant and the appropriate books and it is done in 5 minutes. A submerged submarine can even do that.
Radar or RDF will also give you a rudimentary fix, but do not forget in 1941, probably not wise.
Fixes can be obtained on known radio transmission locations, again somewhat iffy.
Now, dead reckoning ( DR ) is not difficult with all known criteria. Last fix, ships course, speed, sea state, tide tables.
All the 6 major participants here had fully qualified Navigating officers and other staff, additionally the Admirals had their own, so the combined experience was considerable. Errors would not have occured and all ships would continually cross reference amongst each other.

Do not confuse the abilities of sailors then, with their modern electronic dependent counterparts.
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dunmunro
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Re: Hood's sinking: the timing of that fatal hit

Post by dunmunro »

Antonio Bonomi wrote:Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,


If anybody does have something more reliable, bring it forward or just accept the reality of the many official documents available both sides.



Bye Antonio :D

The times recorded by the AFCT are likely to be the most timings made during the battle. It recorded a heavy hit just after salvo 12...
Byron Angel
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Re: Hood's sinking: the timing of that fatal hit

Post by Byron Angel »

..... No idea precisely what sort of charts were used in wartime, beyond proper hydrographic charts. What I have learned, however, is that dead reckoning position fix of a ship beyond sight of land for a day are probably no better than +/- 5 miles accurate. And a friend of mine who was a long time trans-oceanic merchant marine officer one mentioned to me that, as late as the 1960s, if his ship was out of sight of land and in overcast weather conditions for a week, he considered his dead-reckoning position as likely no more accurate that +/- 100 miles. Hence the welcome sight of any landfall.

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Hood's sinking: the timing of that fatal hit

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Culverin,

nice talking to you and of course welcome on board of this team :wink:

You are right about the charts, ... I had all of them in my hands 5 months ago, ... all THE originals.

They are done with a particular material ... I do not think water can deteriorate them, ... I do not know about the ink they used but it seems still OK after 73 years.

I agree about everything you wrote but ...

I will NOT put my money on this statement you made :
All the 6 major participants here had fully qualified Navigating officers and other staff, additionally the Admirals had their own, so the combined experience was considerable. Errors would not have occurred and all ships would continually cross reference amongst each other.
Do you know the methods they used to plot their own positions to be used on radio messages and the grid 2+2=4 letter code they used as well on May 1941 ?

http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showth ... -positions
8. The use of 4 letter geographical positions was designed to give some tactical security and greatly reduce the time and possible error in transmitting latitude and longitude. It was very useful for routing convoys and escort rendezvous.
I mean this methodology :

http://jproc.ca/radiostor/hood.html

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Hood's sinking: the timing of that fatal hit

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Culverin wrote: "Probably the most accurate time device outside of the Royal Observatory, Greenwich. Referred to also as Ships Chronometer, Master Chronometer & Master Clock.
The accuracy of which should not exceed .1 of a second per day."
Thanks for this precious info !

With this possible error of 0.1 seconds/day, and assuming a similar tolerance for the German chronometers, the original War Diary detail of Prinz Eugen KTB posted by Antonio (see below) becomes IMHO the final proof for the Hood explosion timing.
Prinz_Eugen_KTB_Hood_sinking_time.jpg
Prinz_Eugen_KTB_Hood_sinking_time.jpg (29.27 KiB) Viewed 3451 times
As a unique circumstance for DKM war diaries in WWII, the entry of the diary, usually reporting only hour and minute, is showing the seconds as well between minute 00 and minute 01, indicating the explosion of HMS Hood at exactly 6:00:20. The fact that the seconds were logged, excludes any possible rounding or error possibility as who was writing must have decided (or must have been instructed) to log 6:00:20 exactly as an extraordinary event was happening.

Bye, Alberto
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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Hood's sinking: the timing of that fatal hit

Post by Herr Nilsson »

No, but rather 06:01:20
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Marc

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Hood's sinking: the timing of that fatal hit

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

No my friend, ... and it is Bismarck reconstructed was diary KTB ( Kriegstagebuch = War Diary ) that does confirm the transcription error itself.

In fact erroneously on Bismarck KTB we can read at 06.01 and 20 seconds : " ... ausserordentlich starke detonation auf Hood .... " but following they also declared exactly on the same statement " ... 5 minute nach gefecthbeginn ... "

Now when the batlle started ? We know it and it is well reported on Bismarck KTB as well, at 05.55 : " ... Feueroffnen auf Hood ... "

It is enough to go and look at the Prinz Eugen original KTB ( Kriegstagebuch ) entry that Alberto pic is attaching here above to see where the error on Bismarck KTB was generated, ... it was generated during the copy of the input from Prinz Eugen KTB original entry.

It is in fact evident above that it must be read 06.00 and 20 seconds ( Eine ausserordentlich starke detonation auf Hood ... ) and NOT 06.01 and 20 seconds.
The statement written aside this input on Prinz Eugen KTB is exactly the same written on Bismarck KTB, since it was copied from there ( Hans Henning von Schultz did it ).

It is enough to know how the Kriegsmarine KTB are written to easily realize it. They are written top down for the time, so the seconds written between the minute on top and the minute down below, ... surely refers to the minute ABOVE, ... and NOT to the minute BELOW.

This is almost a perfect match with photo Nh 69724 showing Hood exploding and PoW salvoes 13th and 14th in the air, tolerance is around 10 seconds.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Hood's sinking: the timing of that fatal hit

Post by Herr Nilsson »

I disagree:
KTB.jpg
(95.77 KiB) Not downloaded yet
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Marc

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Hood's sinking: the timing of that fatal hit

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

NO Marc,

that way to determine the time is NOT correct.

As I told you, is from TOP to BOTTOM the time must be read on KTB.

To reinforce it anyhow, just read after it the statement on both KTB's : 5 minutes after 05.55, makes 06.00, and NOT 06.01.

So there is NO dispute what they wanted to write : 06.00 and 20 seconds.

In case of dispute we can take Adm Lutjens message that will confirm it :wink:

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Hood's sinking: the timing of that fatal hit

Post by Herr Nilsson »

Well, Lütjens said he was in fight with heavy unit since 05:52. :lol:
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Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Hood's sinking: the timing of that fatal hit

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

.... YES, .... :D .... and I seems to recall Lindemann and Schneider were underlining it to him as well ... :lol:

.. He was engaged into a battle by the enemy since 05.52 ... and he knew it ... but he ordered the open fire at 05.55 ... plus 5 minutes ... :wink:

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Hood's sinking: the timing of that fatal hit

Post by Herr Nilsson »

So, please tell me to what information belongs 0601?
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Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Hood's sinking: the timing of that fatal hit

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

that was the reference about what happened after, the smoke and the effects of the Hood explosion.

It is evident that the 20 seconds was added after it, since it is NOT aligned neither with the 06.00 nor with the 06.01 on Prinz Eugen original KTB.

But when somebody ordered to add it, because it was a very important and unique input to have, who was writing wrote it after 06.00 but before 06.01.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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