Hit on POW compass platform

Discussions about the history of the ship, technical details, etc.

Moderator: Bill Jurens

User avatar
RF
Senior Member
Posts: 7760
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, ENGLAND

Hit on POW compass platform

Post by RF »

Given the amount of discussion recently concerning the impact of Bismarck putting a shell past the POW's compass platform and the consequences of that event in causing POW to disengage from Bismarck, a question has formed in my mind.

The Bismarck's shell didn't explode. So what would have happened if this shell had come from Prinz Eugen and not Bismarck - would the effect on the shell be the same (that it wouldn't explode?) or would it have detonated on the compass platform or just beyond it? And if it did explode on the compass platform what would its effect be and how could it have effected the POW turning away? Could such a detonation take out Captain Leach and leave POW leaderless at that moment, causing a continuation of the engagement under the first officer - or would he have turned away as well?

A question did I say! - inevitably it leads to a whole load of other questions...
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
User avatar
wadinga
Senior Member
Posts: 2471
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:49 pm
Location: Tonbridge England

Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by wadinga »

Hi RF,

You have probably already spotted that I don't think it was Bismarck at all. Hood is supposed to have exploded at 06.00 and Bismarck is supposed to have hit a course changing PoW 50 secs later, not to mention a 15 sec flight time? 35 secs to realise there is no need to shoot at Hood anymore, issue an order to director and rangefinder (seperate units, no DCT), compute a new elevation and azimuth and move the barrels to it and fire for a hit(s) on the first salvo. A bit tight even for the wonderful Bismarck!

I don't believe there were any shell fragments to identify the hit, the holes are so jagged they could have been made by any calibre, and the incoming hole is mostly through a window so nothing to trigger the HE fuse there see photos on Hood site. Maybe the fuse was activated on exit because some accounts say the shell exploded outboard of the port side whereas an AP from Bismarck might not even have been activated.

There was a glancing hit on the HA director pedestals which severed cables as well, believed to be from the same salvo. PG had switched to PoW as a target some minutes before.

Bismarck did hit PoW later but I can't believe it was done within a minute of vanquishing Hood.

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
alecsandros
Senior Member
Posts: 4349
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by alecsandros »

wadinga wrote:Hi RF,

You have probably already spotted that I don't think it was Bismarck at all.
...
the damage inside the compass platform was done by a 38cm shell's windscreen, which was knocked off during the initial impact.
The windscreen weighed 83kg, and it's metal fragments killed or injured most of the people inside.

This is what I read in most books and articles, and I would be surprised if fragments from the windscreen weren't recovered afterwards...
User avatar
wadinga
Senior Member
Posts: 2471
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:49 pm
Location: Tonbridge England

Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by wadinga »

Hi Alecsandros,

See http://www.hmshood.org.uk/reference/off ... 67-111.htm

This is what the official report said
From....THE COMMANDING OFFICER, H. M. S. “PRINCE OF WALES”

Date.....9 June, 1941 No.001.B.

To........THE COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF, HOME FLEET.
_________________________________________________________________________________________

The following report is forwarded in accordance with your signal 1552.B.7 No. 552. Special attention is invited to paragraph 5(d).

2. The ship appears to have been hit by four 15 inch shells and 3 of smaller calibre. One at least of the latter was of 8” calibre. It failed to detonate and required two men to throw it over the side. The remaining two may have been 8” or 5.9”; but the entry holes suggest 8”.

3. Details of each hit are as follows:--

Shell “A”—15”. Entered starboard forward corner of compass platform and left through port searchlight control position. It is uncertain whether it passed overboard whole or whether partial detonation occured [sic; misspelling in original] near the port after corner of the compass platform.

Damaged [sic] caused. Captain’s T.B.I.’s damaged; chart table destroyed; all instruments, V.Ps and wiring in port after section of compass platform destroyed; port searchlight sights, control instruments and wiring destroyed; majority of personnel on compass platform and port side A.D.Os position killed or wounded: VG/VP gear and signal deck multiphones damaged.

Shell “B”—15”: Passed through main support of forward H.A. Directors, entering through centre hole above Captain’s sea cabin, and leaving through port side without exploding. This shell was in the same salvo as “A.”

Damage caused. Forward H.A. Director support distorted; starboard H.A. Director temporarily jambed for training; with those exceptions both the H.A. directors were mechanically undamaged. The Rangefinders are being examined by Messrs Barr and Stroud: all electric leads to port forward director cut and junction boxes smashes; upper chart house wrecked; echo sounding equipment destroyed. Both forward H.A. Directors have been removed to enable pedestals to be checked and repaired as necessary.
It is confident about the bridge hit being 15" without explaining why, whereas it admits there is a question over some of the others. Two shots are certainly identified, the one picked up and dropped overboard , a faulty 8" HE that did not go off, and the 15" recovered in the dry docking. :shock: There is no special mention of a windshield at all in the Compass Platform.

Geoffrey Brooke references a shell fragment from aft being mounted on a display board in the Mess, but does not mention any souvenirs from the Compass Platform.

Do you believe 35 Secs?

All the best
wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
User avatar
Dave Saxton
Supporter
Posts: 3148
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 9:02 pm
Location: Rocky Mountains USA

Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by Dave Saxton »

Bismarck already had the range and bearing on PoW and running firecontrol solutions in its computers because its MA had been firing at it for some minutes. The time flight was less than 20 sec.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.
alecsandros
Senior Member
Posts: 4349
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by alecsandros »

wadinga wrote:

Do you believe 35 Secs?

Well, the range was down to 15km or so, and Bismarck's guns had a very flat trajectory at that range.

The German ship did not need to "straddle" in order to get hits... this is the advantage of a high m-v gun...

From Antonio's reconstruciton of the battle, I understand Bismarck's 6th salvo was fired entirely on Hood (A+B and C+D turrets), then salvo 7 (4+4 guns) was fired to check firing solution on Prince of Wales , and then salvos 8 and 9 (each one with 4+4 guns) managed to hit the British battleship...
User avatar
Antonio Bonomi
Senior Member
Posts: 3799
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy

Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

as you can see from the PG Rheinubung film, Bismarck was firing A+B and soon after C+D, so the fall of shells on the enemy was of 4 shells every time.

My reconstruction was made on 2005, so 8 years ago, from that time I have added many more information so it needs to be updated sooner or later.

Probably Bismarck hit the PoW earlier than I thought believing on some wrong narrative timing on 2005.

So, my 2 cents here ...

1) Capt Leach wrote at 08.00 : "BISMARCK immediately shifted fire to PRINCE OF WALES and almost immediately a violent explosion was heard in PRINCE OF WALES. "
If words mean something, "immediately" followed by "almost immediately" should provide us some sort of the events timing reference.
In another report I read also “ quickly and very accurately “.

2) The salvo we see on the film was straddling the PoW immediately before she fired her salvo 16th, so we have the perfect timing at 06.00 and 50 seconds.
In my opinion if we look at the water columns those are not 8inches ( 203 mm ) from Prinz Eugen but 15inches ( 380 mm ) from Bismarck, and there are 2 shells visible.
It should be easy to realize were the other 2 shells of this Bismarck semi-salvo went : 1 one the compass platform and the other on the director.

3) Ltnt Hunter-Terry said to Hood board of inquiry that the hit on the PoW funnel was received at 06.01.
I assume during that minute elapsed timeframe and before minute 06.02, and that shells was part of the salvo after the one that hit the PoW compass platform.
His events timing was certified by the Board of Inquiry as : on the spot and taken from notes written during the events.
He wrote : " One salvo which fell astern of "Hood" I took to be 8" H.E. The splashes were considerably smaller than the previous ones and apparently burst on striking
the water. There was a flash and black smoke when it burst."


But I have also to say that as Wadinga correctly wrote, Prinz Eugen was firing to PoW from a minute before ( 05.59 ) and Bismarck 150 mm secondary too, and Jasper wrote about 2 strikes by Bismarck secondary observed when he was firing to PoW ( ?).

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
alecsandros
Senior Member
Posts: 4349
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by alecsandros »

Antonio Bonomi wrote:
It should be easy to realize were the other 2 shells of this Bismarck semi-salvo went : 1 one the compass platform and the other on the director.
Hi Antonio, all,

do you know if fragments from the shell that hit the compass platform were recovered ? If it was a 38cm APC shell from Bismarck, the carnage was done moslty by pieces of the shell's windscreen - pieces that must have remained inside the compass platform.. so they could have been recovered.
User avatar
wadinga
Senior Member
Posts: 2471
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:49 pm
Location: Tonbridge England

Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by wadinga »

All,

Alarm Starboard vaguely mentions various fragments of Bismarck shrapnel and Hood debris being found in the ship but never mentions anything from the Compass Platform specifically. The official damage report I quoted makes no mention of any fragments allowing confident identification.

Flat Trajectories- have a look at the photos on the Hood site where the inbound appears about eye height and the exit is knee height. Albeit Hood was heeling to starboard at the time, but it is a long way from being a flat trajectory.

PG's HE should explode on water impact creating a bigger splash, possibly as big as Bismarck's non-exploding AP.

PoW has just turned hard to starboard to avoid Hood, having previously turned to port to follow her, FC solutions from Bismarck's secondary armament are obsolete. 35 secs !

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
alecsandros
Senior Member
Posts: 4349
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by alecsandros »

wadinga wrote:All,



Flat Trajectories- have a look at the photos on the Hood site where the inbound appears about eye height and the exit is knee height. Albeit Hood was heeling to starboard at the time, but it is a long way from being a flat trajectory.

Well, at 15km, the 15"/L52 had a angle of fall of 10.5*. that's pretty low. At 18km, the angle was still only 14*.

With such a low angle of fall, the hitting space for a battleship-height target is large. It is very well explained here:

viewtopic.php?f=36&t=2631
User avatar
wadinga
Senior Member
Posts: 2471
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:49 pm
Location: Tonbridge England

Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by wadinga »

Hi Alecsandros,

Yes I'm well aware of the hitting space argument, but since the angle of fall recorded by the holes in the Compass platform indicate more like 30 degrees how can it be Bismarck's hit?

Unless PoW is heeling 20 degrees that is......

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
User avatar
Dave Saxton
Supporter
Posts: 3148
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 9:02 pm
Location: Rocky Mountains USA

Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by Dave Saxton »

wadinga wrote:PoW has just turned hard to starboard to avoid Hood, having previously turned to port to follow her, FC solutions from Bismarck's secondary armament are obsolete. 35 secs !
Not really. It could be continuous. Up dated range and bearing for target two are running into the firecontrol computors in real time in parallel with the range and bearing for target one, which is now sinking. A firecontrol solution for the heavy battery can be made at once and the heavy battery layed by RPC, which is not radically different from its current setting.* There is no need to re-acquire the new target, measure new range and bearing, and run a brand new firecontrol solution ...ect...

I'm open to the idea it was 8" or a 5.9", but it was not impossible for the BS to accurately target POW with its heavy battery so quickly in this case.

* For a schematic of the firecontrol system go here: http://www.kbismarck.com/archives/index.html then open the AVKS PDF documents and open the diagram pages.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.
User avatar
Dave Saxton
Supporter
Posts: 3148
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 9:02 pm
Location: Rocky Mountains USA

Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by Dave Saxton »

The angle of fall of the 8" at 15km range was about 12*. Flight time about 27 sec.

The angle of fall of the 5.9" at 15km was about 21*. Flight time about 22 sec.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.
alecsandros
Senior Member
Posts: 4349
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by alecsandros »

... since it was a non-exploding hit, the damage and the carnage must have been done through shock damage along projectile trajectory, and possible fragments from the shell that were thrown inside the compass platform.

the 8" and 5.9" projectiles had much less destructive potential than the 15" ones, as their windscreens were far lighter.

Given the extent of the damage done to the C.P., and the fact that it was abandoned as a command position afterwards [with Leach going to the aft con tower] makes me believe the hit came from a 38cm shell.
alecsandros
Senior Member
Posts: 4349
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by alecsandros »

wadinga wrote:
Unless PoW is heeling 20 degrees that is......
Bismarck may also have been heeling at that time. As I understand it, it's FC computers automatically adjusted for own ship movements when calculating the FC solution.
Post Reply