Hit on POW compass platform

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson and Wadinga,

YES, I agree and I was ready to make a much more precise drawing of that shell path, ... both the ADM 267/111 PoW repair documentation on drawings and photos will provide me a very precise input.

I had some valuable inputs also from Hood Association on Facebook by Paul Bevand and Frank Allen.

In summary, the rank and occupation does not provide us info about their location but on 5 of them : Midshipmen ( 2 on the CP ) and R.D/F ( 3 on the Radar Office close to the boat deck).

From Paul Bevand : " D is Devonport - Plymouth. Most of Hood crew would be P as she was a Portsmouth ship. JX Relates to seamen. KX would be stokers but none of them here of course. SSX is short service. R/DF is radio direction finding. "

From Michael Nottage : " j means seaman, x is a pay rate. "

From Frank Allen : " I don't think the exact duty locations/positions of all PofW's 24 May 1941 are known. The little I know comes from Geoffrey Brooke's book "Alarm Starboard!": the R/DF office was badly hit and there were fatalities/casualties within (I will NOT describe them and must insist that no one else do so or I will delete the post out of respect for the affected families). Obviously this would be the R/DF ratings. The two midshipmen were killed in the Compass Platform (CP). Again, no description will or should be added.
As for the others, I don't know...but it's likely they were from the CP (I.e. Signals types), the AD platform near the CP, the area around the R/DF and supply offices. 13 died right away, one the following day. There may have been a later casualty in hospital...I'm not 100% certain though.
Note- The lost men (from 24 May and 10 December) are all memorialized on the Force Z website (we helped them transcribe their casualty lists with a great deal of help from that most excellent fellow Don Kindel). What little is known, would be listed therein. There were 9 or 10 non fatal ( but in some cases quite serious) casualties as well. "

Frank Allen is right in fact on page 60 of Geoffrey Brooke book we can read : " Our total casualties were 2 Officers and 11 men killed, 1 Officer and 8 men wounded ( one died the day after --> Tucker ).

Now on this moment I can try to summarize on this way :

Compass Platform : 2 for sure and were the midshipmen ( Ince and Dreyer )
Type 285 Radar Office below the boat deck : 3 probably all the 3 defined R.D/F on the list ( Fairbairn, Barlow, Harper )
Bridge recognized by Sam Wood : 2 of which one dead --> Johnstone and one wounded that died the day after -- > Tucker

So 7 out of 13+1=14 correctly identified as location ... and still 7 to be correctly located ... keep on searching for it ...

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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wadinga
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Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by wadinga »

All,

Sam Wood's description makes it clear to me that the Compass Platform hit or the DCT support hit (if they were the same salvo) exploded somewhere on the outboard of the ship. Brooke says this was so. The photos of the Compass Platform exit and ADO exit indicate an intact shell leaving the metalwork, but the blast effect sucking Woods out of the hatch etc indicates IMHO it went off very soon afterwards. The DCT support hit, if it was from the same salvo would have exploded further aft. This all sounds like 8" HE to me, as this thin plating should not have triggered a 15" AP surely?.

Antonio, is the brown typescript from the Admiralty Report? It is quite specific that the numbering of the hits should NOT be interpreted as the sequence of hits. This means that the Compass Platform is not necessarily the first hit. Is there more from this report? Nowhere does Leach or anyone else say this was the first hit.

I am sorry Frank Allen is so sensitive about describing the nature of the injuries these men suffered. It is after all over 70 years ago and most of the people who loved and cared for these individuals are gone. I maintain we should not ignore the reality and horror of war but accept such personal tragedies were part of warship combat. We are not studying a game, this was war, brutal and violent, and to be avoided if at all possible. Their sacrifice in a just cause should not be forgotten no matter how poignant and terrible the nature of their passing.

All the best

wadinga
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Tom17
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Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by Tom17 »

Reading through this thread, there have been suggestions that the shell entering the CP encountered nothing more substantial than glass(?) and thin metal plating.
Would that have been enough to detach the shell's windscreen?
Tom
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wadinga
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Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by wadinga »

Hi Tom,

I'm surprised the gun nuts haven't latched onto this thread yet. All the disciples of Nathan Okun should be interested in this shell's performance.

I was considering that if I am right and the shell exploded outboard, why isn't there shrapnel damage outboard to inboard on the ADO station? However if the shell is barely retarded by minimal impact and then airbursts, then all the splinters are continuing outboard and very little gets enough velocity to go back the way the shell came and hit the ship. However the blast wave does travel and this what Woods experiences. Does anybody have evidence about this?

I am hoping Antonio has more original material than he has shown so far and if there were detached fragments of a windshield or shell to definitely identify calibre, they might have been picked up.

The inbound shell almost fitted through the window slot (see photo on Hood Website) how wide is the slot on the plans?

All the best
wadinga
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

YES, Sean those brown sheets are ADM 267/111, the HMS Prince of Wales damage report detailed document.
I agree with you, the ref. number of the hits on this document does NOT correspond of the sequence in time they were received on board PoW.
They are divided on : ABOVE WATER (4 of them ) and BELOW WATER ( 3 of them )
There is evidence of a possible 5.9 inches (150 mm BS secondary ) shell instead of a 8 inches ( 203 mm Prinz Eugen main artillery ) --- > ref. Jasper report and Paul Cadogan point about it.
Very few details about the casualties and dead sailors in relation to the received hits.

Here the hit Nr. 1, the famous " Compass Platform " and Bridge one we are talking about :
PoW_Hit_Nr_1_01.jpg
PoW_Hit_Nr_1_01.jpg (169.85 KiB) Viewed 1906 times
PoW_Hit_Nr_1_02.jpg
PoW_Hit_Nr_1_02.jpg (199.23 KiB) Viewed 1906 times
Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

@Antonio:
based on what you posted of the damage caused by hit n.1 and on the damage photos (ref. Hood website), I see no reason why the disengagement order could not have been given by Capt.Leach from the Compass Platform after the hit passed through, instead of from the conning tower.
We will possibly never know, what is sure is that at 6:01:30 PoW started the 160° turn to port, therefore the order was given around few seconds before.

Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

@all: for info, I've measured the Compass Platform of the HMS PoW a bit more precisely from my 1:100 original plans (1/8 inch = 1 foot).

The compass (measured at the screens level) is 3,8 meters large (front) and 4,5 meters long (sides). At ship's centre line the compass is 4,7 meters long.

Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Alberto,

YES, I agree with you my friend, there is a very high possibility that the disengagement order : " Hard to port ! " could have been issued by Capt. J. C Leach directly from the Compass Platform BEFORE leaving it to go down into the Conning Tower.

We can see it reproduced in that way into the movie " Sink the Bismarck ", were Sub-Ltnt Esmond Knight was playing Capt Leach role.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuO4BfnlDY8

The real status of the Compass platform we can see on the ADM 267/111 photos, not even close to the overall status showed into the movie, do demonstrate that the equipment in there were still usable and so that was a real possibility.

Still it is incredible that there is no way to correctly locate ALL the 13+1 dead sailors on board HMS Prince of Wales to an exact position on the ship on the moment they died.

So far we can assess with high probability :

2 Midshipmen into the Compass Platform
3 Seaman R.D/F into the 285 type radar room below the boat deck

than we can guess :

3 Signal sailors on the Searchlight bridge
5+1 Seaman on the ADO and ALO bridges

I can hardly believe that on 72 years nobody has ever written the precise position where does men died.

Unfortunately, not on the books and documents I have :think:

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,
Alberto Virtuani wrote:@all: for info, I've measured the Compass Platform of the HMS PoW a bit more precisely from my 1:100 original plans (1/8 inch = 1 foot).

The compass (measured at the screens level) is 3,8 meters large (front) and 4,5 meters long (sides). At ship's centre line the compass is 4,7 meters long.

Bye, Alberto

That is NOT much room :think:

I can hardly believe there were into that room the 9 persons the movie " Sink the Bismarck " shows.

So far we are at only 5 apparently : Capt Leach, Chief Yeoman of Signals, LtntCdr Rowell, ... and the 2 died midshipmen.

Anyone does know more about it ?

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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RF
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Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by RF »

Antonio Bonomi wrote:
I can hardly believe there were into that room the 9 persons the movie " Sink the Bismarck " shows.
Don't forget that that movie is full of mistakes !!!!!
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
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Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ RF,

I agree with you, so many errors on that movie, ... anyway, ... surely this one is evident as far as people on the Compass Platform as well as overall damages showed after.

What I would like to discover, ... is the name of the Chief Yeoman of Signal ( never written by anybody anywhere as far as I know ) that was not even called by the Hood board of Inquiry despite he was one of the few in the HMS Prince of Wales Compass Platform and surely looking at the HMS Hood carefully, ... I should say very carefully ... given his duty on that moment.

My opinion on this moment is that 2 were the persons killed into the Compass Platform ( maybe 3 if one signal guy was in there too ) and 3 or maybe 4 were the persons killed by the shell fragment into the type 285 radar room below the boat deck level at midship level after the second funnel, ... and those were the ones that G. Brooke saw passing close to it on his way from his aft rangefinder position to the compass platform.

ALL the others, ... and they were the majority ... have been killed by the splinters on the open bridges on port side.
On the Searchlight bridge SLS, on the ADO and ALO bridges, ... more or less between 7 to 9 persons.

Sam Wood saw 2 of them, and described many others there ... Esmond Knight had several bodies on him when he recovered and he was on the ADO bridge.

Everything seems to point in this direction now as far as available evidences.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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wadinga
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Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by wadinga »

Hi Antonio,

Firstly, one again, a mighty round of applause for you :clap: :clap: :clap: for putting original documents, found at your personal effort and expense, at our disposal. I hope you will consider putting the dockyard reports with the photos on the Hood website. Duplicated here as well would be great (websites can disappear) :shock:

Looking at http://www.forcez-survivors.org.uk/biog ... ertae.html it seems Alfred Edwin Gilbert D.S.M. Chief Yeoman of Signals Service no. D/J 99570 was on the Compass Platform. His entry says "4 survived". Leach, Rowell, Gilbert and who?

Unfortunately he did not survive Prince of Wales' sinking.

Does anybody else believe Woods' account of this shell exploding, contrary to the dockyard review? Here is a fascinating description of the spread of splinters from an airbursting HE shell http://nigelef.tripod.com/wt_of_fire.htm It confirms my opinion that very little is thrown rearward, being spun out by centrifugal force into a disc, still travelling forward. The dockyard is unequivocal on it being a 15" hit, but only based on holes which are much larger than 15"? There are no cookie-cutter holes to determine calibre. There is no mention of shell fragments or windshield, ie definitive proof of calibre.

Alberto has said
what is sure is that at 6:01:30 PoW started the 160° turn to port, therefore the order was given around few seconds before.
this by no means sure at all as Rowell's map is compromised by not showing the port turn at the time of Hood's destruction and the subsequent starboard and further port turn. His timings are compromised by him admitting he might be two minutes out. For instance the "First map" by Busch reproduced one page ago that Antonio likes so much doesn't show PoW turning to port until 05:03 sic 06:03 after continuing to advance toward the enemy. :dance:

PS German speakers - What does the legend on the Busch map say about Norfolk and Suffolk?


All the best

wadinga
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

thanks for your very nice compliments and you know my friend that if something is coming into my hands sooner or later everybody else will have it too, … and the same will occur about the overall documentation I got recently too.

You know I am in touch with Paul Bevand … Frank Allen and I will make sure that everything will be available for everybody on the Denmark Strait documentation resource link on the HMS Hood website.
Problem is that they are a lot of documents … it will be an enormous job, ... but now I have them all and mostly I have the complete list and logic of them in my mind.

Great job about the PoW Chief Yeoman of Signal, so it was : Alfred Edwin Gilbert D.S.M. Chief Yeoman of Signals Service no. D/J 99570 .
Now it is my turn to applaud you Sean :clap: :clap: :clap:

I think by reading it thru that the 4th survivor he/they mentioned was probably Esmond Knight, ... since they counted 13 dead persons ( it should be 13+1 the day after = 14 ) and not 2 or 3, … so the whole of them ( compass platform + bridges + radar ) and not only the compass platform ones, … but I can be wrong of course.

The shell exploding or not is another mystery to me. But they had so many witnesses to ask, why they did not ask them.
It is strange that we do not know it today. But there were no shell fragments on board apparently, your explanation on support of it can be the reason why.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

the HMS Prince of Wales Compass Platform looking forward to the bow :
PoW_Compass.jpg
PoW_Compass.jpg (166.35 KiB) Viewed 1819 times
Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Wadinga wrote: "Alberto has said: "what is sure is that at 6:01:30 PoW started the 160° turn to port, therefore the order was given around few seconds before".
this by no means sure at all as Rowell's map is compromised by not showing the port turn at the time of Hood's destruction and the subsequent starboard and further port turn"
Hi Sean, Rowell's map doesn't show the turn to port at 6:00 simply because it never happened. Rowell was very clear about this fact stating, as navigating officer, that the turn was planned but never executed.

PoW turned away at 6:01:30 as per Antonio's reconstruction based on official documents. Photo (NH69731) is confirming. Please see the "Articles of War" thread where we have already discussed this point.

Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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