Re: Denmark Strait and RN Articles of War
Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:09 pm
So it wasn't the turn away to port which caused Y turret to jam.
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Of course...NH69731..how could I make that mistake!Antonio Bonomi wrote:My friend you are surely referring to your well known photo Nh 69731 and not Nh 69725 when you talk of the 2 shell splashes.
Then how could the turret continue to fire during the turn as shown in Antonio's latest plot a couple of posts ago?paulcadogan wrote:Of course...NH69731..how could I make that mistake!Antonio Bonomi wrote:My friend you are surely referring to your well known photo Nh 69731 and not Nh 69725 when you talk of the 2 shell splashes.
With regards to my questions....all I can say is...asked and answered...thanks! That is good to know.
And @ Steve - the jam occurred during the first turn away around Hood's wreck. It is said to have happened as the ship heeled in the turn.
No, it was the counter turn immediately after, during the firing of salvo 20th, ... the second in local control of 1 shell, ... the one we can see falling on Bismarck stern when PG Rheinubung official battle film starts.Steve Crandell wrote:So it wasn't the turn away to port which caused Y turret to jam.
This also confirms that Y turret shell ring jammed during the 2nd turn (~0603) NOT during the turn at ~601:30.Antonio Bonomi wrote:
I am glad to announce you that I now have in my hand a SOLID evidence in writing on a map that all my hard researched work and my intuition of those 3 PoW local control salvoes being the KEY to understand all the events timing before and after ... was CORRECT ! ... and consequently now there is NO room anymore even to put them in discussion ... especially the photo Nh 69731 showing exactly the first one, ... the 19th PoW salvo ... or the 1st in local control if you like it better, ... 2 shells.
Somebody into an official PoW gunnery map made a cross to declare when they were really fired, ..and just like the 18 degrees on Plan 4, … that makes for me all the difference in this world. Again, into RN Admiralty in London, … they understood and carefully analyze EVERYTHING, … just like I did for last 10 years ,…but they were much better than me of course.
It has been a pleasure for me to open those official documents and find out so many confirmations of my hard work on this battle re-construction.
Those are sensations and satisfactions I will never forget.
Bye Antonio
OK, so the jam therefore occurred during the reversal of the turnaway to port, as shown on the map - DURING the firing of the local control salvos. In other wors, when the ship was coming back to starboard. I see McMullen says it was at salvo 20 - while the turret was training - so clearly the ship was turning and the turret had to train to stay on target.Antonio Bonomi wrote:No, it was the counter turn immediately after, during the firing of salvo 20th, ... the second in local control of 1 shell, ... the one we can see falling on Bismarck stern when PG Rheinubung official battle film starts.
Here from the PoW gunnery report the data you asked about the jamming at salvo 20 on Y turret at 06.03 and 30 seconds more or less :Steve Crandell wrote:Then how could the turret continue to fire during the turn as shown in Antonio's latest plot a couple of posts ago?paulcadogan wrote:Of course...NH69731..how could I make that mistake!Antonio Bonomi wrote:My friend you are surely referring to your well known photo Nh 69731 and not Nh 69725 when you talk of the 2 shell splashes.
With regards to my questions....all I can say is...asked and answered...thanks! That is good to know.
And @ Steve - the jam occurred during the first turn away around Hood's wreck. It is said to have happened as the ship heeled in the turn.
A ship sometimes generates a much greater heel when reversing a turn, so I wonder whether it actually happened during the turn back to starboard.
Probably the damage report makes it clear which way the ship was turning when the casualty occurred, but I don't have access to that right now.
Bye AntonioThe following defects occurred in "Y" turret : Salvo 20 - Owing to the motion of the ship, a shell slid out of the port shell room and fouled the revolving shell ring while the latter was locked to the trunk and the turret was training. The hinge tray was severely buckled, putting the revolving shell ring out of action. The tray was removed, but on testing the ring it was found that No. 3 and 4 hinge trays of the starboard shell room had also been buckled and were fouling the ring. The cause of this is not yet known. The trays were removed and as the action had stopped by this time, No. 4 tray was dressed up and replaced. The ring was out of action until 08.25.
As you can read NO mention of any re-engagement at all, ... and the decision to turn away ,... taken BEFORE the turn around Hood remains ...so at 06.01 and 30 seconds.
Appendix to "HMS Prince of Wales" NO.001.B. dated 4th June, 1941.
TO : The Commander-in-Chief, Home Fleet
Copy to Rear Admiral Commanding, First Cruiser Squadron – CS1
SECRET
During the approach "Hood" made - "G.I.C." - followed by - "G.O.B.1" - just before opening fire at 0552 1/2. Range approx. 25,000 yards. "Prince of Wales" opened fire at 0553. "Bismarck" replied with extreme accuracy on "Hood". 2nd or 3rd salvo straddled and fire broke out in "Hood" in the vicinity of the port after 4" gun mounting. Lighter ship engaged "Prince of Wales". "Price of Wales" opening salvo was observed over, 6th was seen to straddle.
At this time "Prince of Wales" had 5 (five) 14" guns in action. "Y" turret would not bear.
Fire in "Hood" spread rapidly to the mainmast. A turn of 2 blue at 0555 opened "A" Arcs at "Prince of Wales" ninth salvo ( 4 main guns more from this moment onward 5+4 = 9 ). "Hood" had a further 2 blue flying when, at 0600, just after "Bismarck's" 5th salvo, a huge explosion occurred between "Hood's" after funnel and mainmast and she sank in three or four minutes. "Hood" had fired five or six salvos but fall of shot was not seen, possibly because this coincided with firing of "Prince of Wales'" guns.
"Prince of Wales" starboard 5.25" battery was now in action. Course had to be altered to starboard to avoid remains of "Hood"; meanwhile "Bismarck" had shifted main and secondary armament fire quickly and accurately onto "Prince of Wales". A heavy hit was felt almost immediately.
And at 0602 compass platform was hit and majority of personnel killed. Navigating Officer was wounded; Commanding Officer unhurt.
The same salvo severed all fire control leads to the port forward H.A. Director and put the starboard forward H.A. Director out of action temporarily jamming it in training. The control officer of the latter ordered all turrets to go into "After Control". This was carried out, but, about the same time a 15" shell burst on the boat deck and seriously upset the starboard after H.A. Director. The crew of this director had already been considerably blasted by "Y" Turret firing on a forward bearing. The 15" shell burst threw the control officer off his feet and broke his telephone lead. By the time he was again through to the H.A.C.P. The target was lost behind smoke astern.
It was considered expedient to break off the action and consolidate the position, and the ship, after being manoeuvred round the remains of "Hood", turned away behind a smoke screen. "Y" Turret fired in local during the turn as smoke blanked the after director.
It now seems probable that the enemy turned away at the same time as "Prince of Wales" and about two enemy salvos were seen short during this period.
The "Prince of Wales" fired 18 main armament salvos. The target was crossed and recrossed and three straddles observed. No hits were seen. True range on opening fire was 25,000 yards. The true range on ceasing fire was 14,500 yards.
The 5.25" opened fire at a range of 18,000 yards but only fired 3 salvos.
"Y" Turret's shell ring jammed during the turn away and the turret was out of action until 0825.
After retiring on a course of about 160 degs. "Prince of Wales" circled to port, steadying up on a course of 250 degs.
I have the honour to be, Sir, your obedient servant,
(Signed) J.C.Leach Captain, Royal Navy
It was considered expedient to break off the action and consolidate the position, and the ship, after being manoeuvred round the remains of "Hood", turned away behind a smoke screen. "Y" Turret fired in local during the turn as smoke blanked the after director.Antonio Bonomi wrote:Hello everybody,
@ Steve Crandell,
simply because Captain Leach himself told us he decided to retreat disengaging before being maneuvered around the remains of Hood and NEVER even thought about re-engaging.
As you can read NO mention of any re-engagement at all, ... and the decision to turn away ,... taken BEFORE the turn around Hood remains ...so at 06.01 and 30 seconds.
Appendix to "HMS Prince of Wales" NO.001.B. dated 4th June, 1941.
TO : The Commander-in-Chief, Home Fleet
Copy to Rear Admiral Commanding, First Cruiser Squadron – CS1
SECRET
During the approach "Hood" made - "G.I.C." - followed by - "G.O.B.1" - just before opening fire at 0552 1/2. Range approx. 25,000 yards. "Prince of Wales" opened fire at 0553. "Bismarck" replied with extreme accuracy on "Hood". 2nd or 3rd salvo straddled and fire broke out in "Hood" in the vicinity of the port after 4" gun mounting. Lighter ship engaged "Prince of Wales". "Price of Wales" opening salvo was observed over, 6th was seen to straddle.
At this time "Prince of Wales" had 5 (five) 14" guns in action. "Y" turret would not bear.
Fire in "Hood" spread rapidly to the mainmast. A turn of 2 blue at 0555 opened "A" Arcs at "Prince of Wales" ninth salvo ( 4 main guns more from this moment onward 5+4 = 9 ). "Hood" had a further 2 blue flying when, at 0600, just after "Bismarck's" 5th salvo, a huge explosion occurred between "Hood's" after funnel and mainmast and she sank in three or four minutes. "Hood" had fired five or six salvos but fall of shot was not seen, possibly because this coincided with firing of "Prince of Wales'" guns.
"Prince of Wales" starboard 5.25" battery was now in action. Course had to be altered to starboard to avoid remains of "Hood"; meanwhile "Bismarck" had shifted main and secondary armament fire quickly and accurately onto "Prince of Wales". A heavy hit was felt almost immediately.
And at 0602 compass platform was hit and majority of personnel killed. Navigating Officer was wounded; Commanding Officer unhurt.
The same salvo severed all fire control leads to the port forward H.A. Director and put the starboard forward H.A. Director out of action temporarily jamming it in training. The control officer of the latter ordered all turrets to go into "After Control". This was carried out, but, about the same time a 15" shell burst on the boat deck and seriously upset the starboard after H.A. Director. The crew of this director had already been considerably blasted by "Y" Turret firing on a forward bearing. The 15" shell burst threw the control officer off his feet and broke his telephone lead. By the time he was again through to the H.A.C.P. The target was lost behind smoke astern.
It was considered expedient to break off the action and consolidate the position, and the ship, after being manoeuvred round the remains of "Hood", turned away behind a smoke screen. "Y" Turret fired in local during the turn as smoke blanked the after director.
It now seems probable that the enemy turned away at the same time as "Prince of Wales" and about two enemy salvos were seen short during this period.
The "Prince of Wales" fired 18 main armament salvos. The target was crossed and recrossed and three straddles observed. No hits were seen. True range on opening fire was 25,000 yards. The true range on ceasing fire was 14,500 yards.
The 5.25" opened fire at a range of 18,000 yards but only fired 3 salvos.
"Y" Turret's shell ring jammed during the turn away and the turret was out of action until 0825.
After retiring on a course of about 160 degs. "Prince of Wales" circled to port, steadying up on a course of 250 degs.
I have the honour to be, Sir, your obedient servant,
(Signed) J.C.Leach Captain, Royal Navy
Hope this will end the discussion about all this debate and the ridiculous 06.13 PoW retreat timing invented and written for 72 years on books.
Bye Antonio
It is obvious that the first radio message contained a transcription error that was corrected in the appendix statement.Antonio Bonomi wrote:Hello everybody,
@ Alecsandros,
many thanks, it is always good to see how the hard research work is evaluated.
@ all
and after having seen how and why Adm Tovey saved RearAdm F. Wake-Walker , here you can evaluate what Adm Tovey had to overwrite with his 06.13 disengagement time for PoW in order to save Capt. J.C. Leach releasing those evidences that could have been used against him by an Inquiry.
It is particularly interesting to notice how on Capt. Leach messages/narrative the number of guns working moved backwards and increase in number from the first to the last version of events, while the hit on the compass platform time came back 30 seconds, and the disengagement occurred while Y turret could bear since PoW 9 th salvo, so other 4 guns were firing too ( total up to 9 ), since it jammed during the turn away already in process.
Is it stated in the log that she turned back to 220 or is the course on the maps just a meandering line? It seems to vary in the sharpness of the turn from map to map. If you notice the course up to 0600 tends to be straight lines connecting specific times for course changes, but after that they become curvy and therefore less precise...dunmunro wrote:The thing that is puzzling is why A and B turrets did not fire after 0603 when they clearly could have. My guess is that Mcmullen assumed that PoW was going to continue turning to ~060d and so the forward director along with A and B turret were trained round to port when control was passed over to the after director. When PoW turned back to starboard to ~220d at ~0603 the forward turrets were unable to fire before Leach decided to turn away. The jammed Y turret and zero output from the forward turrets could not have encouraged him to continue the action.