Denmark Strait and RN Articles of War

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wadinga
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Re: Denmark Strait and RN Articles of War

Post by wadinga »

Hi Alberto,

Thanks for clearing up the confusion, yes Marc has done an excellent job. In my opinion it clarifies that the Rowell map is just the crude salvo map with a guesstimated curvy bit inserted. This had to reflect his evidence
We put the wheel over to starboard to give us a greater clearance from the wreckage and by the time we were abreast of her all that apparently remained were three large sections of the hull which were unrecognisable
I consider that the embellishment of the curve is added to the earlier salvo map, and this is so crude because the action plot and log were both destroyed and this reconstructed from salvo timings, azimuths and ranges only, and does not reflect heading changes which even Rowell admits happened.

Here are two witnesses who must be considered.
LIEUTENANT COMMANDER ANTHONY HUNTER TERRY, ROYAL NAVY, "H.M.S. PRINCE OF WALES."
At 0557 "Hood" was hit amidships by "Bismarck's third or fourth salvo. A big fire started just before the main-mast and a lot of black smoke was given off. The fire appeared to die down slowly and then increase again, flames were a dull red colour. The flames did not reach high but appeared but appeared (sic) to be burning just forward, around the foot of the main-mast. "Hood" continued to fire and fired one salvo from the after group on the foremost bearing. At 0600 there was a heavy explosion at the after end of the "Hood", no actual fall of shot was observed at that time. A column of smoke rose above the ship and completely enveloped her. It formed into a mushroom at the top. I thought she had blown up completely but shortly afterwards the smoke cleared sufficiently for me to see her. She was apparently still moving ahead and turning to port. She was down at the stern and listing heavily to port and the after part of the ship appeared to be a mass of twisted framework, as though the plates of the side had been blown out leaving only the frame. The part of the ship which I saw was just forward of "X" turret. At this time we were turning to port between the "Hood" and the enemy and I observed debris falling towards "Prince of Wales", in particular one large piece that looked like the main-mast or a derrick. 0601, "Prince of Wales" was hit by a shell in the after funnel and this obstructed my attention. Shortly after this I observed "Hood's" bows sticking vertically out of the water and sinking rapidly, I think on an even keel. This was about 0603 and after that I saw nothing but black smoke hanging over the scene of the wreck.
PETTY OFFICE CYRIL HENRY COATES, DJ 106924, ROYAL NAVY, "H.M.S. PRINCE OF WALES".
I saw the "Hood" on our port bow and I saw several salvoes fall astern, just over and ahead. Then one salvo appeared to strike right amidships. I got the impression of a shower of sparks on the boat-deck not far abaft the after funnel about mid-ships. It was followed then by one roll of flame from the after screen which enveloped the after turrets. After that I did not see very much of the subsequent explosion because we had had a hit on the starboard crane which knocked me down. As I got up the "Hood" had disappeared from sight. I do not mean she was sunk, but was obscured by our superstructure.
but was obscured by our superstructure.
Both these witnesses, including Antonio's favourite timing reference say PoW was TURNING TO PORT at the time, or just before Hood exploded. This is not in Rowell's maps because they are both wrong, and because Antonio has followed one of them his track is wrong too.

Your experience in the 2,500ton Perseo is interesting, but Brooke was in a 35,000 battleship looking through his binoculars at the target as After DCT spotting officer and he said they were turning to port and then they turned to starboard and then they turned to port again.
All the best

wadinga
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Denmark Strait and RN Articles of War

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Wadinga wrote: " In my opinion it clarifies that the Rowell map is just the crude salvo map with a guesstimated curvy bit inserted."
Hi Sean, the 2 maps differ also at the exit (after 6:06) when Rowell map is less to east than the gunnery and for minor details. I do think they are similar just becuse they are....right.

I don't comment on the initial turn to port as I don't think we have any way to say it really happened. If it happened then most of witnesses were not aware.

Bye, Alberto
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Re: Denmark Strait and RN Articles of War

Post by wadinga »

Hello Alberto,

Three witnesses say it happened- but they must all be wrong. :shock: Why? Because a man who was pierced through the face seconds later by a chunk of wood, and stunned by a near death experience, drew a map the following day and didn't include it? As he also didn't include the turn on the salvo map, he described in his own evidence?

Since it is alleged most of the maps drawn were falsified by British officers, why is it this one is uniquely accurate? :D

All the best

wadinga
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Re: Denmark Strait and RN Articles of War

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

you wrote :
Both these witnesses, including Antonio's favorite timing reference say PoW was TURNING TO PORT at the time, or just BEFORE Hood exploded.
This is not in Rowell's maps because they are both wrong, and because Antonio has followed one of them his track is wrong too.


Sean, what are you saying ? :shock:

PoW according to Ltnt Hunter-Terry was turning to port, ... AFTER Hood explosion, ... not BEFORE, ... please read back what you wrote above.
Were the other witness stated that before Hood explosion they were turning to port with PoW ?

Rowell was injured but still in condition to do his duty, ... drawing a correct map ... without intentional modifications like others did.

You better read and study carefully all the material before writing similar statements.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: Denmark Strait and RN Articles of War

Post by wadinga »

Hello Antonio,

I read carefully
At this time we were turning to port between the "Hood" and the enemy and I observed debris falling towards "Prince of Wales",
Are you saying Leach saw Hood explode, PoW turned to starboard to avoid the wreck, Bismarck switched targets, there was 20 seconds of shell travel time, hit the Compass Platform, Leach panicked, ran down below and turned to port all before the debris including a mainmast or derrick came down....... where from, Low Earth Orbit? :wink:

Once again you ignore Brooke who says PoW turned after Hood, once again you ignore Coates who says PoW turned after Hood, because they do not fit your strictly regimented second-by-second timeline, now cast in Wotan steel, and incapable or evolution or revision, since it is now required to prove Leach's Guilt and The Conspiracy. :shock: . Rowell's inaccurate maps, including the salvo plot, drawn later from scraps of information, are no more able to support minute scrutiny than the Plot, on which you have heaped so much derision.

You have not explained why you think the Compass Platform and DCT support hits were the first hits, when it is perfectly likely, IMHO that the funnel hit was misidentified as 15" when it was actually 8" HE exploding on impact. The first hit that Leach heard before the Compass Platform hit. The hit that threw Coates off his feet before Hood exploded, whilst PoW turned to PORT obscuring his view forward from the after funnel searchlight platform when he stood up again. The hit that Terry said happened at 06:01. I believe that the original material which you kindly posted says nothing about the sequence of hits on PoW, only about their position in the ship. Later authors have erroneously ascribed a time based sequence to hits A, B etc. starting on the Compass Platform. If anyone definitely found 15" fragments near the funnel that is another matter.


Your writings, your theories, and your maps are your copyright, and your extensive research into publicly owned records should be acknowledged by any who build on it. We all owe you a debt of gratitude for the material you reproduce as we do to the webmasters who also selflessly provide archive material.

P.S. Reserve me a copy of your book would you?

All the best

wadinga
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Denmark Strait and RN Articles of War

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

@Sean:
perhaps it's a limit of mine, but I can't see ANY importance in the fact that PoW initiated or not the turn to port (as well as that Hood did, by the way).

IF it happened (and I don't think so) it was for few seconds, immediately followed by the turn to starboard to avoid the wreck and by the counter-turn that (as per Rowell map, gunnery map, Plan4, Leach account, or any document available, were absolutely negligible in terms of course and distance from the enemy. Still it could have augmented the effect of rolling, but this is all. Timing will not change...... :wink:

Why are you so fond of this initial turn to port ? :D

The fact is that PoW disengaged at 6:01:30 after being under BS fire for 40 seconds and after receiving a single 15" salvo on board. All the rest is (as you like to say) immaterial vs. the Articles of War.

Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:35 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Denmark Strait and RN Articles of War

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

so you have avoided to underline that before Ltnt A. HunterTerry noticed some Hood parts falling ( very likely not from the sky, since parts can fall also from a sinking wreck toward a warship passing close to her ) he wrote :
At 06.00 there was a heavy explosion at the after end of the "Hood", no actual fall of shot was observed at that time.
A column of smoke rose above the ship and completely enveloped her.
It formed into a mushroom at the top.
I thought she had blown up completely but shortly afterwards the smoke cleared sufficiently for me to see her.
She was apparently still moving ahead and turning to port.
She was down at the stern and listing heavily to port and the after part of the ship appeared to be a mass of twisted framework, as though the plates of the side had been blown out leaving only the frame.
The part of the ship which I saw was just forward of "X" turret.
As you may have noticed now reading carefully, Ltnt A. Hunter-Terry has described the explosion at 06.00, ... the smoke enveloping her ... than the smoke CLEARED for him to see her again ... and he than described what he saw well after all this.

Do you agree ?

The parts falling toward PoW occurred AFTER all this, ... into a stable situation ... no explosion anymore, no more smoke, ... a clear sinking vessel with some parts falling toward a ship passing close to her clearing her wreckage area.

Nothing coming from the sky after an explosion as far as I can read.

Than they were turning to port between the Hood and the enemy ( which was bearing 330 from Hood ) so you now go on a battle map and draw a line connecting Hood and the enemy and than you place the PoW turning to port at that point, just as Hunter-Terry wrote. You will find that he was right : 06.01 and 30 seconds.

So, the time was after 06.01 as Hunter-Terry wrote, ... and the hit on the PoW funnel occurred AFTER all this ... please read above ... it is ALL written !

It is obvious that if the PoW was already turning to port 160 degrees disengaging from the battle, ... the order was already given, ... and the hit on the compass platform already received before the order being issued by Capt J.C. Leach.

Do you agree ?

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: Denmark Strait and RN Articles of War

Post by wadinga »

Hi Alberto,

It's lucky we have you to keep telling us the "facts", otherwise we'd have to rely on the witnesses who were actually there. How about examining what they say? :D

Antonio, you asked me to read Hunter-Terry carefully and i quoted his whole statement. All the "blowing up stuff and all the debris falling down stuff happens whilst PoW is turning to port. Later he starts a sentence with 06:01 and then says that is when PoW is hit on the funnel.

You say
Nothing coming from the sky after an explosion as far as I can read.
Since Isaac Newton and Galileo established the basic principles, all falling has been pretty much vertical from up to down. Sky to earth. The mainmast or derrick go up at 06:00 and come back down again very, very shortly afterwards, whilst PoW is still turning to port. Some time after this Leach turns his 35,000 behemoth to starboard.

According to your map timeline PoW does no turning to port at all until 06:01:30 why is Hunter-Terry wrong? You have also not addressed Coates who confirms Hunter-Terry, and you have not addressed Brooke who confirms them both.

The only instruction recorded as being given by Leach involved the numbers 160 is a turn TO 160 degrees, not by or of. To 160 degrees means turn and steady on a course 160T and is a true compass course. This occurs much later in the action. It does not happen at 06:01:30.

All the best

wadinga
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Re: Denmark Strait and RN Articles of War

Post by Dave Saxton »

Which turn to port? Is this the turn from *300 back to 280* intiated at Approx. at 0556? Or is this another turn to port during that time frame?
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Denmark Strait and RN Articles of War

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Wadinga wrote: "It's lucky we have you to keep telling us the "facts", otherwise we'd have to rely on the witnesses who were actually there. How about examining what they say?"
Hi Sean,
luckily we have you insisting on such details and hypothesis and not looking at the important things and facts demonstrated by Antonio...... :D

Still you don't answer my question to you: why are you fond of the initial turn to port that is TOTALLY IMMATERIAL in this thread. I have shown you how even the turn to starboard to avoid Hood had NO effect on the course, distances and timings that are the "facts".
Dave Saxton wrote: "Which turn to port?"
Hi Dave, Sean is saying that in his view PoW started another turn to port at 6:00 (the turn Holland was going to order having shown the Blue 2 pennant that apparently was not hauled down to make it executive). The fact that Hood started the turn is still debatable (just because the rudder was found turned in the wreck) but for PoW no narrative is accounting for that except the "witnesses" Sean and Antonio are discussing.....

Bye, Alberto
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Re: Denmark Strait and RN Articles of War

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

Sean my friend, it is an useless waste of time jumping from an argument to another on this thread coming back to re-discuss previously discussed and analyzed arguments.

It is NOT by doing this that you will change the reality lately surfaced that puts the events we are covering in this thread under a totally different light than written on the books for 72 years.

The 160 degrees turn to port has been already well covered, analyzed and accepted. When Capt Leach gave the order to disengage, he ordered a 160 degrees turn to port at 06.01 and 30 seconds, and not to go on course 160 degrees after some turning later on like you try to say. This is only your useless trial to enlarge the timing disregarding what happened.
I have demonstrated you been wrong on this approach months ago, using own Capt Leach event list and timing. I will NOT do it again. Why you keep on coming back on this ?
Just go back some pages and read what was written months ago about it by many persons, not only myself.

Same goes for the sequence of the events and timing listed by Hunter-Terry, the hits received, hope you have finally realized that the hit on the PoW funnel occurred after the one on the compass platform, and the PoW was already turning to port disengaging at that point, after 06.01.

We were covering Norfolk distances and instead of finally admit that ADM 116/4351 Diagram B was right with all the known consequences, you waited some day and re-opened those arguments previously well discussed and accepted and considered closed.

You are only trying to keep ALL those arguments at least with some doubts NOT to accept what is demonstrated after careful researches and analysis.

Simply you do NOT want to accept the reality as it shows and consider an argument closed, especially if it confirms the wrong doings of those Officers and what has been done on 1941 to cover up the whole things modifying the events, the timing and the maps.

I am sorry for you, the evidences are still all there in the KEW Public Record Office and can be used to demonstrate the truth, and I am just doing it.

YES, you will have one copy of the new article about Denmark Strait battle, and also one of the night of May 23rd, 1941 telling you what really happened during those crucial hours.

Everybody involved will have finally what they deserved given the real actions they did or avoided to do from a Military stand point.
Wake-Walker will have is own, … Leach his own, … Philips and Ellis their own too, … mostly I want Vice-Adm L. Holland to have finally what he really deserved compared to the previous ones I have listed.

@ Dave Saxton,

Sean is not talking about the turn at 05.56 from 300 to 280. He would like to establish that PoW started the turn at 06.00 to port following Hood from 280 to 260. Unfortunately that turn never started for PoW at least, since Rowell and Leach never mentioned that on narrative and maps, and the Hood board of inquiry only wrote that PoW turned only to starboard to avoid Hood, and not to port and soon after to starboard.

That turn 20 degrees to port from 280 to 260 never started for PoW. But just as Alberto already explained, even if started never had a real effect since immediately after there was full wheel to starboard ordered to avoid the Hood wreckage.

What is important is the sequence of the events and their related timings.

06.00 and 10-15 seconds more or less Hood was hit and exploded
06.00 and 50 seconds PoW was hit on the compass platform by Bismarck
06.01 and 30 seconds PoW was turning 160 degrees to port disengaging making smoke
06.02 PoW ceased fire on central control, smoke screen on the air
06.03 and 10 seconds PoW started fire Y turret local control, 2 shells
06.04 and 5 seconds the 3rd and last Y turret local control salvo landed close to BS bow

It was all over on less than 4 minutes for the PoW disengagement events, and the order was given by Capt Leach less that 2 minutes after the Hood exploded, at 06.01 and 30 seconds.

Just like Norfolk distance during the battle being much less that 15 sea miles from the enemy, the above events and related timing are now demonstrated with available official documents and nothing will change them anymore.

@ Alberto,

You are right my friend, the important facts are well demonstrated now : for Leach and PoW, … for Wake-Walker and Norfolk, ... for theAdm Tovey overall cover up, ... and more will come on Suffolk and Ellis as well.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: Denmark Strait and RN Articles of War

Post by Byron Angel »

Santarini's analysis cites a pair of two point turns to port by Holland, the first ordered at approx 5:55am and the second at approx 5:59am. Santarini is of the opinion that, at the time Hood was fatally hit, both Hood and PoW were in process of executing the second turn and had passed through about 10deg change in heading.

FWIW

B
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Denmark Strait and RN Articles of War

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

@Byron Angel:
Hi Byron, thanks for posting Santarini's opinion. I'm possibilist about the start of the turn to port, however this turn would not have changed much the overall battle map (minimum change of course for few seconds, no major distance change from enemy, etc.)
The effect of this turn would have been just a great enhancement of the rolling motion of PoW, passing form a turn to port to a turn to starboard and then to port again in less than a minute.

However it's strange that Rowell, who remembered the turn to starboard to avoid Hood, didn't mention the turn to port following the flagship even if the flags were flying on the Hood and as Navigating Officer he should have been aware of that.

No definitive evidence IMHO that the turn happened and no major impact in any case on the battle map......

Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Denmark Strait and RN Articles of War

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

this is the Official version of the Hood Board of Inquiry.

You can read yourself ... what happened in reality, ... in line with Rowell and Capt Leach written declarations.

But you can always believe on what you like better to have happened.
PoW_stb.jpg
PoW_stb.jpg (22.77 KiB) Viewed 4581 times
Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: Denmark Strait and RN Articles of War

Post by wadinga »

Hi Antonio,

You are really deluding yourself with
It is NOT by doing this that you will change the reality lately surfaced
Your "reality" may have surfaced for you (and a couple of others) but there are a significant number of us your theory is so riddled with holes it stands as much chance of staying on the surface as a cheese grater :D

You say
The 160 degrees turn to port has been already well covered, analyzed and accepted
Well not accepted by me. Where does the analysis come in? Your analysis says
When Capt Leach gave the order to disengage, he ordered a 160 degrees turn to port at 06.01 and 30 seconds,
. What he actually says in his narrative is
After retiring on a course of about 160 degs. "Prince of Wales" circled to port, steadying up on a course of 250 degs. And joining "Norfolk" came under orders of C.S.1 who at 0633, stated his intention of keeping in touch with the enemy.
Where is the record that he "ordered" a turn of 160 degrees?

Or again you say
hope you have finally realized that the hit on the PoW funnel occurred after the one on the compass platform,
No I don't realise that. Where is the sequential timing of these hits recorded? Leach does say in the narrative that after a switch over of HA control was ordered
This was carried out, but, about the same time a 15" shell burst on the boat deck and seriously upset the starboard after H.A. Director.
but then Leach thought the Compass Platform hit was at 06:02!

The witness who said Hood had not yet exploded when the funnel was hit was Coates, and I brought his evidence up for you to explain away in January. However using the thread search function reveals Antonio Bonomi has never used "Coates" in any post, because the thrust of the thread is to steamroller through with assertions "facts" have been "proved" , and bypass and ignore inconvenient information in the hope it will buried in 100 plus pages.

Please tell us all why Coates is wrong. Please tell us why Hunter-Terry says PoW was turning to port before 06:01 when the athletic Leach doesn't manage to get to the Conning Tower until 06:01:30 in your inflexible timetable?

Why would PoW have to turn to starboard if Hood had already turned to port (the rudder), and PoW had not followed suit? PoW was already clear. Look at your own map based on Rowell. Leach and Rowell remembered that the turn order had not been executed, so how could they say the following turn had been made?

In fact, the problem was stationing PoW on Hood's starboard quarter as everytime a turn was made to port, if it was done simultaneously PoW would get closer to Hood. If Holland had not turned before telling PoW to turn, the latter would have been very close indeed, and any later turns to match Lutjens' course would have resulted in PoW running up Hood's stern. Holland's turn to fight because he had reached decisive range had been delayed too long and Leach probably acted on initiative to follow Hood the second she was seen to be turning.

Antonio, please address the witnesses points.

All the best

wadinga
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