Denmark Strait and RN Articles of War

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

of course, that is for sure ... I am glad that a lot of new stuffs are coming out lately ... the radio message on complete format and some new inputs like this one ... nothing will be left behind ... and next week I am in Kew at the PRO and IWM ...

Bye Antonio

[Byron Angel]

Antonio wrote - "Sean, I see your witness, but unfortunately both Ltnt Hunter-Terry and Capt. Leach ( June narrative ) do provide a clear and different version of those events sequence. "

It is wisest to objectively examine all the evidence. A good case in point might be LION's 360deg circle at Jutland. Beatty strenuously denied that it had ever occurred, claiming that his flagship had instead simply made a large S curve. NEW ZEALAND's official track chart of the battle, however, clearly showed the circle as she followed the BCF flagship in the maneuver.

B

[Dave Saxton]

When was In the First Battle written and when was it first published? When was the English translation published?

[wadinga]

Hi Dave,

Im Ersten Gefecht was published in 1943 and has never (I believe) been translated

The Story of the Prince (!) Eugen was published after the war, is available in english and is a different book covering the whole history of the ship.

All the best

wadinga

[Djoser]

Imagine an 800kg Harley crashing through your living room at 1000 mph.

This is a classic post, and an outstanding analogy. Most people couldn't function within a week or two of such a thing happening, much less make a command decision influencing the strategic situation in a major World War within a few minutes. Not saying he made the right choice (though he probably did given the outcome). Just saying the fact he was able to decide anything at all speaks highly of the man.

Though a Harley really only weighs about 550 pounds by itself, so if it was in fact a 15" shell from Bismarck (as seems quite likely), it would be that much worse.

[Djoser]

Antonio wrote - "Sean, I see your witness, but unfortunately both Ltnt Hunter-Terry and Capt. Leach ( June narrative ) do provide a clear and different version of those events sequence. "

It is wisest to objectively examine all the evidence. A good case in point might be LION's 360deg circle at Jutland. Beatty strenuously denied that it had ever occurred, claiming that his flagship had instead simply made a large S curve. NEW ZEALAND's official track chart of the battle, however, clearly showed the circle as she followed the BCF flagship in the maneuver.

B

Somewhat off topic for me to comment, but I have never understood how it was that such a pompous ass as Beatty had so many supporters just after Jutland, and between the wars. Was England really so deprived of truly heroic and effective leaders at this time?

[Byron Angel]

Djoser wrote - "Somewhat off topic for me to comment, but I have never understood how it was that such a pompous ass as Beatty had so many supporters just after Jutland, and between the wars. Was England really so deprived of truly heroic and effective leaders at this time?"


..... Beatty is a fascinating character study. His rise to prominence was not by any means solely dependent upon Churchill's favor. Beatty was personable, charismatic, personally courageous to a fault and gifted with a good analytical mind. It also did not hurt that he was married to perhaps the richest woman in the world (check out the story of Ethel Tree). On the debit side of the ledger, he was personally vain, vindictive and arrogant, lax as an organizer/manager and IMO deficient in the experience (and perhaps talent) necessary to effectively lead ships in battle. My impression of him is that he was best suited to strategic or operational leadership.

Roskill's "Admiral of the Fleet - Earl Beatty" is probably the best biography of this complex man.

B

[wadinga]

Wow Djoser,

Have you been here since page 6 or in a marathon reread?

Actually I was considering the Electra Glide Ultra Classic weighing in at 411Kg in road trim, plus two hairy bikers at 114Kg each plus chains, boots, German helmets with horns and also weapons etc.

Dimensionally small, but heavy metal. However I don't think one would ever make 1,000mph even going straight down.

Glad you liked my analogy.

All the best

wadinga

[alecsandros]

Wow Djoser,

Actually I was considering the Electra Glide Ultra Classic weighing in at 411Kg in road trim, plus two hairy bikers at 114Kg each plus chains, boots, German helmets with horns and also weapons etc.

... A Volkswagen Beetle would weigh just about 800kg

[wadinga]

Hi Alecsandros,

Oddly enough I though of a Beetle first of all. Then realised you couldn't possibly fire one through the Compass Platform and leave anybody alive at all.

In order that Leach could jump up and rush downstairs in 40 secs after impact it couldn't possibly be larger than a Harley. Anything else would be silly.

Seriously though, Djoser is 100% correct. This was a real happening with real blood, real guts, real trauma. Not a wargame or a simulation or contractual wrangling in a court of law.

It still looks an 8" damage to me in the photos. Why would a 15" AP explode after exiting? It had only gone through tinplate.

All the best

wadinga

[alecsandros]

Is it certain the shell exploded after exiting Prince of Wales compass platform... ? I thought it hit the water just like the others...

[Alberto Virtuani]

Hi all,
the hit in compass platform (referred as hit n.1) was always considered (both by Capt.Leach in his detail damage report on June 1st 1941and by the Naval Construction Department that inspected the ship after the battle evaluating shell size, direction and fall angles) as a 15" one.
The only debated hit was the second one (hit n.2 on the fore secondary directors support): it was judged to be most probably a 15" but possibly even a 8".
Are there evidences that this hit can be considered a 8" ? I doubt that the difference between a 8" and a 15" passing through a thin plate (like the compass platform one) can be evaluated based on the fact that there were survivors in the room....

Bye, Alberto

[Djoser]

Djoser wrote - "Somewhat off topic for me to comment, but I have never understood how it was that such a pompous ass as Beatty had so many supporters just after Jutland, and between the wars. Was England really so deprived of truly heroic and effective leaders at this time?"


..... Beatty is a fascinating character study. His rise to prominence was not by any means solely dependent upon Churchill's favor. Beatty was personable, charismatic, personally courageous to a fault and gifted with a good analytical mind. It also did not hurt that he was married to perhaps the richest woman in the world (check out the story of Ethel Tree). On the debit side of the ledger, he was personally vain, vindictive and arrogant, lax as an organizer/manager and IMO deficient in the experience (and perhaps talent) necessary to effectively lead ships in battle. My impression of him is that he was best suited to strategic or operational leadership.

Roskill's "Admiral of the Fleet - Earl Beatty" is probably the best biography of this complex man.

B

Thanks, I will look for that book!

Well he did have a certain panache and the guts to back it up, no doubt about that--proved it as a young man in command of those gunboats at Omdurman, and later during the Boxer Rebellion Not to mention one of the most celebrated quotes of either war 'There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today.', though apparently the additional '..Steer two points closer to the enemy.' was mythical.

He certainly looked the part of a Nelsonian hero...and no doubt cultivated that carefully.

But he wasn't really much of a leader, and made very little attempt to establish communication with those serving under him. No 'Band of Brothers' with Beatty. More like a 'Band of guys who fucked your wife.' One wonders if he failed to communicate with his wife as well, and provoked her promiscuity to some extent; though perhaps she would have slept with half the Royal Navy whatever he did in that respect. Her liberal sexual favors notwithstanding, he wasn't terribly well regarded amongst the fleet as far as I have read, unlike Jellicoe who was immensely popular.

I also tend to doubt his intelligence, or at least his ability to make the correct decisions under pressure.

But worst of all his behavior about the controversy between himself and Jellicoe after the battle. Demanding the official account be rewritten, insisting that accidental circle never took place, refusing to take any kind of responsibility for failing to make most effective use of the single most powerful element in the rRoyal Navy, the 5th Battle Squadron. And being damned petty about it, as well as deceitful.

But if I had to guess, I'd say he'd have continued the action with Bismarck He was an instinctive fighter, I'll grant him that. His instinct just lacked any sort of incisive direction behind it.

[Djoser]

Wow Djoser,

Have you been here since page 6 or in a marathon reread?

Actually I was considering the Electra Glide Ultra Classic weighing in at 411Kg in road trim, plus two hairy bikers at 114Kg each plus chains, boots, German helmets with horns and also weapons etc.

Dimensionally small, but heavy metal. However I don't think one would ever make 1,000mph even going straight down.

Glad you liked my analogy.

All the best

wadinga

No I am still catching up, but when I saw that post of yours, I had to comment.

I too thought straight off that a Volkswagon would be closer in weight. But certainly not in density, so the Harley analogy is still better. Especially if it WAS an 8" shell. I was inclined to believe that it exploded AFTER going through the bridge due to the delayed action fuse (15" armor piercing). But who knows? I'd like to see the photographs.

[Alberto Virtuani]

Djoser wrote: " I was inclined to believe that it exploded AFTER going through the bridge due to the delayed action fuse "

Hi Djoser, based on the Naval Construction Department report, the shell "did not explode inside the ship". They never mentioned it exploded at all, and having been (according to the same report) a sure 15" shell, and an AP one, I doubt it could be activated by the plates of the compass. It probably exploded in the water as Alecsandros suggests.
Same report says that no splinter belonging to this shell were found on board.

Bye, Alberto