Bismarck firing procedures at DS

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alecsandros
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:44 am

@all

My opinion is that we do not have the required materiel to form a realistic opinion over Bismarck's salvo plot. We lack to much info... All we can do are approximations of approximations... based on incomplete , scattered and not necessarily comparable or original (non-edited) materiel...
:?

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:00 am

Hello everybody,

@ Alecsandros,

you are surely right from salvo 2 to salvo 9, we have nothing about it, unless the Baron with 40 shells needed to sink the Hood.

But we do have :

Bismarck salvo 1 we have the time and the photo Nh 69722.

Salvo 10 we know it was fired at same time as salvo 13/14 of PoW thanking photo Nh 69724 with Hood exploding.

Salvo 12 we have the film frame and the alignement with PoW salvo 16th timing at 06.00 and 50 seconds.

Salvo 13, 14 and 15 we know have been fired to PoW.

Salvo 16 we can see on Nh 69731 landing on PoW while we see PoW salvo 20th of 2 shells landing short at 06.03 and 45 seconds.

Salvo 17 to 21 we can see on PG film 86 seconds and on several photos too, from 06.03 and 29 seconds until 06.04 and 52 seconds.

Salvo 22 to 26 we have all the final photo sequence showing almost all of them, until 06.09 and cease fire.

I think it is enough to determine with a good enough approximation the firing sequence of those fired 93 shells and in which way Bismarck fired all the way thru the engagement.

Better than nothing ... :wink:

What I need are just the reasons why Bismarck was so " slow " on firing on certain periods ... as we can realize pretty well.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:05 am

I am intrigued also by the film.
It shows other type of firing (A+B followed by A+B, C+D followed by C+D) than the one published in all known accounts...

It's much more than nothing, as you say, but ... hmmm.... Who knows if the film was "cut" or not ? Do we know we are watching 86 continous seconds of the battle of Denmark Strait ?

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:13 am

Hello everybody,

@ Alecsandros,

now you are on the right path ... :wink:

Forget about the 150 mm secondary, it is very easy to see the 3 smoke puffs leaving the Bismarck when they fire and not get confused with main guns firing.

Remove the intermediate 8 seconds of Hood and PoW inserted in there by the Propaganda Kompanie film makers.

You will get 86 seconds of Bismarck film if you connect sequence 1 with sequence 2, ... since they must be connected in my opinion, ... smoke and sky clouds analysis to confirm it.

Those are the salvo's 17 to 21 as stated, and we can time them correctly thanking the last 2 PoW salvo's landing on Bismarck.

Now you can observe which main turret groups are really firing and when by simply stop the frame and see from where the fire/smoke is departing.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:21 am

... It's still A+B followed by A+B

and

C+D followed by C+D...

all wittness accounts mention A+B follwed by C+D and then A+B again... so more "cuts" into the film are required to reconcile it with eye wittnesses...

OR perhaps the film is not cut so much, and for some part of the battle, by unknown (to me) reasons, Bismarck changed method of fire.

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:34 am

Hello everybody,

@ Alecsandros,

try this solution ... which is my current observation ... and personal impression in this moment ... :wink:

Salvo 17 -> A+B

reloading time ...

Salvo 18 -> B+C ( photo Nh 69728 )

Salvo 19 -> A+D

reloading time ...

Salvo 20 -> C+D ( photo Nh 69726 )

Salvo 21 - > A+B ( photo Nh 69727 )

... if the above is correct ... than we have salvo 16 ( photo Nh 69731 ) being fired by C+D obviously ... :wink:

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:42 am

But that implies the film is cut and pasted from several pieces (more than 2).
Which implies the semi-salvos that we see can come from ANY time frame.

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:59 am

Hello everybody,

@ Alecsandros,

why ?

As far as I can see the sky and the sea, ... the smoke sequence leaving the Bismarck ... both from main guns as well as secondary 150 mm ones that now are a great help of follow it thru ... are giving me the impression that there was only one cut in between, ... made on purpose just to insert the 8 seconds of the enemy sequence ... for obvious war propaganda reasons.

This is the only sequence available where Bismarck was not directly hit or surrounded by PoW fall of shells ... and where we do not see Prinz Eugen doing manoeuvres on the flagship bow ... like in the final part of the battle ... :wink:

The only doubt I have is on determining exactly which group of turrets are firing .... sometimes I see A+B and C+D clearly ... sometimes different ... it is not very easy because of the flash and the huge amount of smoke ... but many more eyes and brain ... can do the job ... as usual ... :wink:

Single original photo can help ... that is why I correlate them with the film sequence showing them too.

I wish I had the full battle film in great quality ... :think:

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Tue Feb 16, 2016 12:19 pm

On this version:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPmkOtSveXY

It is apparent that at ~ 6:04 fires Anton+Bruno, 6:06 fires Caesar+Dora; than at 6:37 , Caesar+Dora again. Than it is the cutscene that you mention, with Hood's smoke.

Why fire C+D 2 times ?

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Feb 16, 2016 1:05 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Alecsandros,

that version is the currently available best one loaded by 3DHistory ( Thomas Schmid ).

We have one salvo ( the 17th ) at counter 05.41

reloading time ...

2 salvo's one after the other ( 18th ) at 06.01 and ( 19th ) at 06.06 film counter, ... 5 seconds between group salvo's.

reloading time ...

2 more salvo's at 06.37 ( 20th taken on photo Nh 69726 showing C+D firing ) and 07.05 ( 21st taken on photo Nh 69727 showing A+B firing ) ... 28-8=20 seconds between group salvo's.

As you can see on this last salvo sequence ( 20+21 salvo's ) there was a lot of time between group salvo's after reloading them ... even if you remove the 8 seconds inserted on the film.

I do not know why after having fired last C+D probably .... after reloading are again C+D the first group being fired again ... surely there is an explanation for it ... but we miss those details ... :(

Interesting ... :think:

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Tue Feb 16, 2016 1:08 pm

Antonio, I don't see 2 salvos at 6:37. I see secondary battery firing at 6:35, and then clear heavy C+D salvo at 6:37

I don't see Anton and Bruno firing.

Is this what you were reffering to also ?

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Feb 16, 2016 1:19 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Alecsandros,

YES !

Now you have to cut and remove the 8 seconds showing Hood smoke and PoW firing that German PK Propaganda Kompanie have inserted in there when they realized this movie for war time propaganda.

Just look last digital frame pic of the previous sequence at film counter 06.42 and ... now connect it with the first digital frame pic of the 2nd Bismarck sequence at 06.50 film counter ... compare them and you will realize they have been cut and separated ... and continue to look at it, ... now with continuity of timing.

At film counter 07.05 you will see finally A+B firing as per very well known photo Nh 69727.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Tue Feb 16, 2016 1:25 pm

Ok, I see the same thing.

My first proposal for C+D firing 2 times (and A+B NOT firing) is... A+B is wooded due to hard turn due to torpedo alarm, OR other change of course that we do not know, and that made turrets A+B not bearing on Prince of Wales.

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Feb 16, 2016 1:32 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Alecsandros,

of course given course of Bismarck and PoW and relative positions that can be one of the explanations.

In fact just after that salvo of A+B of photo Nh 69727 at PG film counter 07.05 which is the 21st salvo of 4 guns by Bismarck at 06.04 and 52 seconds battle time ... the German warship will start her turn from 220 degrees course back again on course 220 degrees.

It is out of discussion that the Prinz Eugen torpedo alarm issued at 06.02/03 did not help the battle and the firing of Bismarck, just like it did not help Prinz Eugen firing solution as well.

Both warships lost the target while turning away ... and after it was only a waste of ammunition's looking at the results.

PoW damage report and the angle of 7 hits received to confirm it ... :wink:

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Tue Feb 16, 2016 1:49 pm

Yup....


QUestion: Where is the original Prinz Eugen film ? [it clearly was longer than what we see - those cuts didn't create themselves.... they are parts of someting longer... bigger... ]

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