Bismarck firing procedures at DS

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wadinga
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by wadinga » Sun Feb 28, 2016 4:56 pm

Hello Alecsandros,
why oh why did the Bismarck expend so few shells as reported by Luetjens to Group North...?
because as you have already deduced Antonio's map, and photo identification and timetable are flawed :shock:

This
The film is probably showing "battle time" around 6:02 - 6:03, after Hood was destroyed.
is what he has said all along, but as you have discovered it shows rapid fire at a rate very different to the average rate. Why? Because for lengthy unseen periods Bismarck was doing no firing at all, since she was jinking to avoid colliding with Prinz Eugen, imaginary torpedoes whatever. It shows another time during the action.

Have a good look at this http://www.bild.bundesarchiv.de/cross-s ... [focus]=11 photo reproduced in Santarini's book. Antonio has put in his sequence but the view from PG at the time he says is not the head on from PG's beam that we see. What we also see in this pin sharp picture is Bismarck's guns on the port beam at an elevation of about 9 degrees. I would like someone else to measure for conformation.

All the best

wadinga
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alecsandros
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Sun Feb 28, 2016 6:36 pm

@Wadinga

AFAIK, Bismarck was able to fire while manouvreing, albeit not at very sharp angles. So even if the ship was turning , she could still fire on the enemy. Given the situation, it was probably best to fire in hope of hitting then not fire at all...

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sun Feb 28, 2016 7:11 pm

hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

if my re-construction and timetable is flawed, like you keep on writing, please provide me your one so we can compare the knowledge and the accuracy of our works.

Otherwise, ... you better avoid to comment with the only intent to discredit my work, ... what you clearly do not know well enough to evaluate at all.

@ Alecsandros,

93 shells fired on 14 minutes battle time, like communicated by Adm Lutjens, is what we have to keep in account on our recontruction.

40 of those being fired against the Hood from 05:55 until 06:00, if we believe the Baron, Capt Leach and some Hood board witnesses declarations.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by dunmunro » Sun Feb 28, 2016 7:20 pm

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
Alecsandros wrote: "I see you kept semi-salvo 11 on Hood and semi-salvo 12 on Prince of Wales... "
Hi Alec,
I understand your doubts but I don't see any way in which BS could have fired a salvo (no. 10) hitting (and sinking) Hood at 6:00 (some seconds before the catastrophic deflagration), fired other 2 salvos (11 and 12) at Hood expected position, then switched (even if quickly) fire to PoW and finally fired a first salvo (13) hitting the compass platform at 6:00:50.....

It does not match with the BS RoF up to that very moment, and film frame (see below) clearly show PoW with BS shells splashes around already when PoW had not yet reached the Hood remains position, therefore less than 1 minute after the fatal hit (PoW is sailing 800 meters behind Hood, at 29 knots she covers more or less 800 meters in one minute). :think:
PoW_compass_hit_BS (2).jpg
I think the salvo in the film frame is no. 12 (if not even no.11, in case Schneider was still waiting the fall of shots before firing the next salvo, despite the "rapid fire" order.....).

In any case we speak about a couple salvos that are doubtful because I guess all the others are covered by film/photos and can be "easily" timed by Antonio..... :D

Bye, Alberto
If the above photo shows Bismarck's salvos falling around PoW then this pushes the timing of Hood's sinking back a minute or so, or more. It would also confirm the hit recorded by PoW's GAR just after salvo 12 (~0559:20):

A.F.C.T., Mk IX. - The 14-in. table was run continuously for 32 hours and proved most reliable. The only incidents which occurred were as follows:-
During the first action after firing salvo 12, a heavy hit was felt on the starboard side and the director setting mechanical pointer was seen to be oscillating violently. At the same time a fuze was noticed to blow at the panel in the 14-in. T.S. The director setting control trigger was used to move off the mechanical pointer. On release, the pointer settled in line with the indicator pointer and no further trouble was experienced.

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sun Feb 28, 2016 7:28 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

you wrote :
If the above photo shows Bismarck's salvos falling around PoW then this pushes the timing of Hood's sinking back a minute or so, or more. It would also confirm the hit recorded by PoW's GAR just after salvo 12 (~0559:20):
No,I disagree.

We cannot move and change event timing based on our preferences.

If you have evidences in your hands that can change the Hood explosion time from 06:00, ... please do so on the dedicated thread about it, ... where we have all other evidences supporting that time :

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6314&start=240

In the meantime, the Hood explosion time can remain there, ... while we have now a correct time for the photo showing Bismarck salvo 11 ( or 12 :think: ) landing on PoW just before she fired her salvo 16th in central control at 06:00:50 seconds.

Bye Antonio :D
Last edited by Antonio Bonomi on Sun Feb 28, 2016 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by dunmunro » Sun Feb 28, 2016 7:29 pm

KM rates of fire:
19. Rate of Fire.

They complain that the Intelligence about the rate of fire of foreign guns is very vague. They are not sure whether these are theoretical figures or actual rates obtained in service. The following data is given for the German ships:

Ship Caliber Rate of Fire -
Round per Minute
BISMARCK 38cm 2

SCHARNHORST
GNEISENAU 28cm 2½

Heavy Cruisers 20.3cm 4
Light Cruisers 15cm 7
http://www.kbismarck.com/german-fire-effect-tables.html

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:46 am

dunmunro wrote: KM rates of fire:
19. Rate of Fire.

They complain that the Intelligence about the rate of fire of foreign guns is very vague. They are not sure whether these are theoretical figures or actual rates obtained in service. The following data is given for the German ships:

Ship Caliber Rate of Fire -
Round per Minute
BISMARCK 38cm 2

SCHARNHORST
GNEISENAU 28cm 2½

Heavy Cruisers 20.3cm 4
Light Cruisers 15cm 7
http://www.kbismarck.com/german-fire-effect-tables.html
So you do not agree with the film ?

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:46 am

Antonio Bonomi wrote:
40 of those being fired against the Hood from 05:55 until 06:00, if we believe the Baron, Capt Leach and some Hood board witnesses declarations.
That's a big IF !

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by pgollin » Mon Feb 29, 2016 11:47 am

alecsandros wrote:
So you do not agree with the film ?


What is your timing from the moment AFTER the first guns are fired, until the moment AFTER they have fired twice more ?

THAT will give the firing cycle time for two broadsides.

The first firings are unimportant except for giving the start time for the loading cycle.

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Mon Feb 29, 2016 11:50 am

pgollin wrote:
alecsandros wrote:
So you do not agree with the film ?


What is your timing from the moment AFTER the first guns are fired, until the moment AFTER they have fired twice more ?

THAT will give the firing cycle time for two broadsides.

The first firings are unimportant except for giving the start time for the loading cycle.
Bismarck was not firing full broadsides, but semi-salvoes.

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by pgollin » Mon Feb 29, 2016 11:55 am

.

ANSWER THE QUESTION

alecsandros
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Mon Feb 29, 2016 11:56 am

pgollin wrote:.

ANSWER THE QUESTION
Why don't you answer yourself ? Do you see broadsides fired ?

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Mar 01, 2016 11:57 am

Hello everybody,

back on total shells, just an evaluation with a comparison ... :think:

PRINZ EUGEN

RoF theoretical 4 rounds / minute ---> on 14 minutes 14x4x8 = 448 shells

Really ordered to fire 184 shells - really fired 157 shells

BISMARCK

RoF theoretical 2 rounds / minute ---> on 14 minutes 14x2x8 = 224 shells

Really ordered to fire 104 (?) shells - really fired 93 shells

Opinions welcome ...

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:05 pm

.....I would add PoW data that are very much in line, demonstrating the big difference between theoretical and practical RoF :

PRINCE OF WALES

RoF theoretical 2 rounds / minute ---> on 9 minutes 9x2x10 = 180 shells

Really ordered to fire 74 shells - really fired 55 shells


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:13 pm

Alberto,
Prince of Wales did not order rapid fire...

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