Bismarck firing procedures at DS

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ Alberto,

a comparable firing efficiency ... and shooting performance ... if we keep in account the fact that :

1) Bismarck was only making 2 turns

2) Prinz Eugen made 4 turns

3) Prince of Wales for 4 minutes could only fire the forward turrets, loosing 4 guns of Y turret for the first 8 salvos, so we have to deduct 32 possible shells from the theoretical in order to compare the real performance of fired vs ordered.

Bye Antonio

[alecsandros]

@Antonio

My best estimate is that the final point of the battle (6:09) is not correct, and the final shots were fired by BS/PE much sooner (6:05-6:06 or so). There is also a probability that German ships opened fire late in the 5:55 minute, with fall of shot form the first salvos being observed around 5:56:20 or so, if not later. Second salvo fall of shot observed as late as 5:57:10... I do NOT think rapid fire was ordered AT ALL on board Bismarck at that time.

The impression I have in the last few weeks is that we have relied to much on the Baron's book as a "primary source", while it is not - it is a memoir, written from memory... There are many many inconsistencies in the Baron's account of the battle of Denmark Strait (the number of shells fired in wrong, the timing of the rapid fire order is inconsistent, etc).

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

Alberto,
Prince of Wales did not order rapid fire...

@ Alecsandros,

Do you know the precise meaning and firing methodology process of the : Wirkungsschießens

I do not yet as I would like to ...

But Jasper firing that way the Prinz Eugen guns, did what I showed you above in comparison with Bismarck.

Bye Antonio

[alecsandros]

I do not know , Antonio...

But what Jasper did is what Jasper did.
What Schneider did may be different.

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@Antonio

My best estimate is that the final point of the battle (6:09) is not correct, and the final shots were fired by BS/PE much sooner (6:05-6:06 or so). There is also a probability that German ships opened fire late in the 5:55 minute, with fall of shot form the first salvos being observed around 5:56:20 or so, if not later. Second salvo fall of shot observed as late as 5:57:10... I do NOT think rapid fire was ordered AT ALL on board Bismarck at that time.

The impression I have in the last few weeks is that we have relied to much on the Baron's book as a "primary source", while it is not - it is a memoir, written from memory... There are many many inconsistencies in the Baron's account of the battle of Denmark Strait (the number of shells fired in wrong, the timing of the rapid fire order is inconsistent, etc).

No, I disagree, please take a look at this :

BS_firing_DS_999.jpg (115.08 KiB) Viewed 1296 times

We have the evidence in film and photos.

I invite you to take a careful look at everything and make your analysis and evaluations based on them.

I like your opinion after you evaluate it ...

Bye Antonio

[Herr Nilsson]

@Antonio

My best estimate is that the final point of the battle (6:09) is not correct, and the final shots were fired by BS/PE much sooner (6:05-6:06 or so). There is also a probability that German ships opened fire late in the 5:55 minute, with fall of shot form the first salvos being observed around 5:56:20 or so, if not later. Second salvo fall of shot observed as late as 5:57:10... I do NOT think rapid fire was ordered AT ALL on board Bismarck at that time.

The impression I have in the last few weeks is that we have relied to much on the Baron's book as a "primary source", while it is not - it is a memoir, written from memory... There are many many inconsistencies in the Baron's account of the battle of Denmark Strait (the number of shells fired in wrong, the timing of the rapid fire order is inconsistent, etc).

[alecsandros]

I know Antonio, I know...
I told you that your explanation is probably the best reconciliation we have of the available data.

However, the photos and film are APPROXIMATELY timed, and are NOT definitive answers to the problems.

I will not write further on this matter, as it may confuse a very complicated story anyway...

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

while I invite you and everybody else to evaluate my time table versus the film, photos and the Prinz Eugen official map I referred to, ... and ... I kindly ask you the correct translation and meaning of the term : Wirkungsschießens

What that translated in easy terms and explanation of the firing events and timing ?

Bye Antonio

[Herr Nilsson]

@Antonio

There are two phases "Einschießen" and "Wirkungsschießen". "Einschießen" is to find the target in range and line. Once you have straddled the target the battery is "eingeschossen". The "Wirkungsschießen" starts immediately after being "eingeschossen". "Wirkungsschießen" literally translated means something like "shooting for effect".

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

many thanks Marc for your explanation of this terms in German language, ... ... in this way we do provide everybody the correct way to understand what really could have happened.

I spent some time years ago with Erminio Bagnasco, the best Italian Navy book writer and a Gunnery Officer of the Italian Navy on the cruiser Garibaldi, ... talking about " Gut Schnell ! " ... as the Baron reported on his book being said by Schneider ... versus the "Wirkungsschießen" I was reading on the official/original Kpt Ltnt P. Jasper ( Prinz Eugen Gunnery Officer ) report.

In Italy the Baron book was translated from English to Italian by Erminio Bagnasco.

Do you agree that it basically means the same firing concept ?

As far as I have understood from Erminio Bagnasco, you can " fire for effect " ( "Wirkungsschießen" ) without necessarily use the maximum firing capability ( Rate of Fire ) but observe your own fall of shells in order to correct your fire and keep straddling ( eingeschossen ) your target.

This is what I have realized by reading Jasper report with Otto Schlenzka in Kiel few years ago.

Your opinion on this point is very important for me ... thanks in advance ...

@ Alecsandros,

many thanks for your opinion on my work, ... which is always nice to have of course.

I will soon show you with the photos how that table translate, ... so you can evaluate it further more.

It is important that we keep on sharing our thoughts about everything ... the result will be for sure a much better overall work.

Bye Antonio

[dunmunro]

Hello everybody,


3) Prince of Wales for 4 minutes could only fire the forward turrets, loosing 4 guns of Y turret for the first 8 salvos, so we have to deduct 32 possible shells from the theoretical in order to compare the real performance of fired vs ordered.

Bye Antonio

The RN fired 1/2 guns per salvo so 8 salvos would mean 16 rnds ordered to fire.

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

Hello everybody,


3) Prince of Wales for 4 minutes could only fire the forward turrets, loosing 4 guns of Y turret for the first 8 salvos, so we have to deduct 32 possible shells from the theoretical in order to compare the real performance of fired vs ordered.

Bye Antonio

The RN fired 1/2 guns per salvo so 8 salvos would mean 16 rnds ordered to fire.

Of course, I agree with you and ... I stand corrected.

On the Royal Navy firing methodology ... you teached me so many things, ... that I will always thank you ...

Bye Antonio

[wadinga]

Hello All,

Lets try something not too contentious.............................. And related directly to Bismarck firing.

Bundesarchiv 146-1990-61-27 shows Bismarck racing directly towards PG's beam at approximately 90 degrees course difference at only a few hundred metres distance. This is so exciting/dangerous/potentially disasterous than several still pictures are taken over a short period, but apparently no film.

PG is dead ahead of Bismarck. Antonio calls this picture number 17 in his 2005 realisation. This picture is sharper than NH series pictures taken within a few seconds of it. It is so sharp the 15 gun barrels can be seen, and their length relative to the turret side makes it clear they are very close to being aligned 90 degrees on the port beam. The salvo smoke makes it clear they have just fired a salvo at PoW. Since PoW's firing bearing to Bismarck is about 330T degrees, then Bismarck's to PoW is about 150T. If the turrets were aligned on the beam, then Bismarck's course is about 240 degrees, and PG's is, (assuming we are looking from the starboard side), 330T.

By using the photo horizon as a horizontal, noting that Bismarck has no obvious list, and drawing a parallel line through the gun trunnions I derive a barrel elevation of roughly 9 degrees relating via the Navweaps reference page to an approximate range of about 18,500m. It is true this is not necessarily their firing elevation, but it might be.

PG is heading directly away from PoW, although her headings depicted on the Gefechtskizze get nowhere near as far north as 330T, maybe a brief max of 290T. This photograph is difficult to reconcile with the track depicted for PG on the Gefechtskizze.

Please can people evaluate this analysis and give their opinion.

I apologise for not being able to reproduce the photo here due to technical ignorance but anybody can see it by going to the Bundesarchiv site and searching Bismarck 1941.



All the best

wadinga

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga, Alecsandros @ all,

here you have a more precise reference as I promised to Alecsandros.

First of all lets see where my photo 17 or Bundesarchiv 146-1990-61-27 is located on my 2005 original map.

BS_photos_17_18_19_20_from_0606_until_0609.jpg (40.18 KiB) Viewed 1232 times

So we can see it was taken just a bit before the photo Nh 69729 and you can see on my map.

You can see the photos 17, 18, 19 and 20, ... showing Bismarck salvos 22, 23, 24, 25 and 26 on those photos fired between 06:06:00 and 06:09:30 .

NOTE : I invite everybody to look at the Prinz Eugen railing showed on that photo. That railing will be fundamental to realize from where that photo was taken.

Bye Antonio

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

now as promised the sequence of Bismarck salvos to be related to my excel matrix posted above :

SALVO 1 to 10 :

BS_DS_salvo_1_to_10.jpg (58.01 KiB) Viewed 1231 times

SALVO 11 to 16 :

BS_DS_salvo_11_to_16.jpg (26.63 KiB) Viewed 1231 times

... continue ...

Bye Antonio