Bismarck firing procedures at DS

[Alberto Virtuani]

Hello everybody,

Wadinga wrote: " you already have it. "

Please provide a link to this one, if you are unable/unwilling to post a map....... and if you are at least able to post a link.
You said that a certain version of the Baron's book contains a certain map, PROVE IT !

The map supposed to be used in your English version is not the same as my Italian version (editor: Albertelli, translation: E.Bagnasco).....

We should find the German version map...... and I'm ready to accept that the Baron changed the map.

However, Schmalenbach used the one revised in 1978 with the Baron and Rohwer, and this is the only one using the CORRECT PG TRACK (as per original PG battlemap).
Any other map containing a WRONG PG track is wrong by definition, no matter when it was published.

1978_Schmalenbach_Baron_Rohwer_map.jpg (57.2 KiB) Viewed 825 times

Wadinga wrote: "he PG KTB says nothing about orders from Lutjens at 06:09. "

Oh yes, Jasper received the order to cease fire from the ship's command at 6:09. Why should Bismarck have ceased fire at a different time ? Was such an order an initiative from Brinkmann (in your deep knowledge of the Navy) or was it the result of Lutjens decision, as officer in command of the squadron ?



Bye, Alberto

[wadinga]

Hello Alberto,

What date

as my Italian version

It should be a simple answer.

On page 14 of this very thread Antonio kindly reproduced "1990_Rechberg_based_on_Schmalenbach_PG_1971.jpg" which was revised , by somebody who was there.

Can't you find page 14 of this thread?

Thank you for the links which show we have been exactly here before. in 2016.

http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... &start=195

forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5752&start=195

Are these links truncated so they don't work?

You says the Baron book contains a certain map, PROVE IT !

What do you want, a signed affidavit?

Antonio has access to this map, he reproduced it. Where did he find it? Since you believe everything he says, ask him for confirmation. 1990 looks like it was the US Naval Academy publication of the new, revised and expanded book published in the following year in the UK.

Oh yes, Jasper received the order to cease fire from the ship's command at 6:09.

Since you are expert at reproducing excerpts from the KTB you know it says "do not fire over Bismarck". There is no actual documentary evidence to say Bismarck ceased fire at any particular time or to prove a salvo was fired within 30 seconds of that time. Your Tedious Table is based on guesswork.

All the best

wadinga

[Herr Nilsson]

Hi Marc,
IMO it's very likely that cylinders (cartridges expelled from the rear of the turret) roll in random direction......

Thanks for confirming that these photos were all taken after 6:03. What about the film ? Are you supporting the denier theory it was turned before 6:03 ?


Bye, Alberto

Alberto,

statistically it's of course possible that one cartridge is rolling across the deck. OTOH this pictures shows two separate piles of cartridges after the battle:



I consider the "denier" theory for valid and tend to agree.

Hello Alberto,

Hello Marc,

What does "Ein lezten granaten der “Hood” die uber Prinz Eugen hinwegheul als weisschusse in die see fuhren. Im hinterland “Bismarck” mean?

BTW You are right,

NH 69722 was taken at 5:55:xx, any other timing is impossible (anyone should be able to count the number of cartridges expended on the deck of PG..

is typical of the dogmatic, biased approach. Other cartridges could still be in the back of the turret, hidden behind superstructure or rolled to the other side of the deck.


The PG KTB says nothing about orders from Lutjens at 06:09.

All the best

wadinga

Hello Sean,

I think the original caption was:

"Die letzte Granate des englischen Schlachtkreuzers, die über "Prinz Eugen" hinwegheulend als Weitschuß in die See fuhr. Rechts: "Bismarck"

which means

"The last shell of the English battlecruiser, which plunged howling across "Prinz Eugen" into the sea behind her. To the right: Bismarck"



And yes, all my copies of NH 69722 are either cropped and/or censored.

And yes, we do not know exactly when Bismarck ceased fire.

[wadinga]

Hello Marc,

What about "Wahrend Bismarck, salve auf salve feuert, schlagen die Aufschlage von Hood in der nahe der Prinz Eugen ein."?

All the best

wadinga

[Herr Nilsson]

"While Bismarck is firing salvo after salvo Hood's impacts are splashing near Prinz Eugen." (Actually ...impacts are impacting...)

[Alberto Virtuani]

Hello everybody,

the Baron's book Italian version is dated 1984.

As said, any map showing a WRONG track for PG is wrong by definition, as any map showing the wrong track for Hood/PoW is wrong by definition (e.g. Pinchin's Plot)....
Is the map kindly indicated by Mr.Wadinga (I understand he is unable to post a map, I will do it for him...) showing the PG track as per PG battlemap ? A simple answer? NOT AT ALL !.
Therefore this map is simply wrong.

1990_Rechberg_based_on_Schmalenbach_PG_1971.jpg (37.91 KiB) Viewed 799 times

Hi Marc,

you wrote: "I consider the "denier" theory for valid and tend to agree."

therefore do you consider that Bismarck turned to starboard at 5:55 (as per the above map) and that the film was turned between 5:55 and 6:00 ?

If so, Leach was wrong saying that Bismarck turned away at almost the same time as PoW did. She did much before. Also no account of this strange early turn is available from any ship (PoW, Hood,PG, NF or SF) and it was a kind of miracle that Bismarck could hit both Hood and PoW while turning in such a way...... but, please, your direct answer to my question above is welcome.



Bye, Alberto

[wadinga]

Hello Marc,

On the Bundesarchiv photo search page if you enter 146-1968-015-012

You find the single splash shot mistitled in Erste Gefechte as Schlachtkreuzers

In the Bundesarchive it says the original caption is:

Eine der letzten Granaten der "Hood", die über Prinz Eugen hinwegheulend als Weitschüsse in die See fuhren. Im Hintergrund Bismarck.
Foto Lagemann

Not Battle Cruiser(s), quite definitively "Hood"! It shows Bismarck's turrets turned aft, and it shows shells landing near Prinz Eugen, because Hood was always firing at Prinz Eugen.

"Wahrend Bismarck, salve auf salve feuert, schlagen die Aufschlage von Hood in der nahe der Prinz Eugen ein.

This too shows shells from Hood landing near Prinz Eugen. Bismarck is diverging from Prinz Eugen long before Hood is sunk.


But then we've been here before..................

All the best

wadinga

[Alberto Virtuani]

.... and the film (45 seconds) shows only 2 splashes from PoW shells around Bismarck while PoW was firing "well grouped" (Schneider) semi-salvos each 30 seconds ?

This is really ridiculous, it's simply impossible that PoW hit the Bismarck at all with this shell density.....I'm curious to see a complete battlemap based on these assumptions, but of course we will never see one from the deniers, who are only able to criticize Antonio's complete work.....


Bye, Alberto

[Herr Nilsson]

@Alberto

Your question in regard of 06:03 and not 05:55: I consider it possible that Bismarck turned away before 06:03.

[Alberto Virtuani]

Herr Nilsson wrote: "I consider it possible that Bismarck turned away before 06:03."

Hi Marc, at what time exactly, if you don't support 5:55, as per Mr.Wadinga "preferred" map ?

Of course 6:02:xx will change basically nothing, but any timing before would have been noticed by everybody on board PoW (especially by a Leach looking for justifications, who reported "at around the same time").....


Bye, Alberto

[Herr Nilsson]

Hello Marc,

On the Bundesarchiv photo search page if you enter 146-1968-015-012

You find the single splash shot mistitled in Erste Gefechte as Schlachtkreuzers

In the Bundesarchive it says the original caption is:

Eine der letzten Granaten der "Hood", die über Prinz Eugen hinwegheulend als Weitschüsse in die See fuhren. Im Hintergrund Bismarck.
Foto Lagemann

Not Battle Cruiser(s), quite definitively "Hood"! It shows Bismarck's turrets turned aft, and it shows shells landing near Prinz Eugen, because Hood was always firing at Prinz Eugen.

"Wahrend Bismarck, salve auf salve feuert, schlagen die Aufschlage von Hood in der nahe der Prinz Eugen ein.

This too shows shells from Hood landing near Prinz Eugen. Bismarck is diverging from Prinz Eugen long before Hood is sunk.


But then we've been here before..................

All the best

wadinga

Hello Sean,

ok, I understand. The original caption was from Busch's book. Anyway, "Schlachtkreuzers" is genitive. In German there is no " 's " for genitive (although a lot of Germans think so ). Therefore it's clear from the context that Hood is meant.

[Herr Nilsson]

Herr Nilsson wrote: "I consider it possible that Bismarck turned away before 06:03."

Hi Marc, at what time exactly, if you don't support 5:55, as per Mr.Wadinga "preferred" map ?

Of course 6:02:xx will change basically nothing, but any timing before would have been noticed by everybody on board PoW (especially by a Leach looking for justifications, who reported "at around the same time").....


Bye, Alberto

IIRC the splashes in the film could be possibly from salvo 17 or 18.

[wadinga]

Hello Alberto,

... and the film (45 seconds) shows only 2 splashes from PoW shells around Bismarck while PoW was firing "well grouped" (Schneider) semi-salvos each 30 seconds ?

Errm I'm not sure if it belongs in this thread but PoW was shooting paired salvoes with long, long gaps between the second of a pair and the first of the next (no metronome?)

Besides:

Once again you make the mistake of thinking what you can see in the frame is all that happened. You can't consider that there might be more cartridge cases on the deck or waiting to be dropped out of the turrets. Like Antonio, when you can see only a single shell splash in the frame it is definitive proof it is a PoW single gun local control salvo, rather than merely only being able to see one of several splashes. But then when intuition is your guide, you naturally eliminate all other possibilities.


BTW thanks for coughing up the publication date. Now about the actual documentary evidence for the time Bismarck stopped shooting....................

Hello Marc,

I believe the Bundesarchiv caption is probably what the original photographer noted, because he was there and noted what he saw. The caption was changed slightly for Ersten Gefecht. Thanks for your translations.


These shell splashes are clearly closer to PG than to Bismarck, because these are shots at PG from Hood. Bismarck is diverging from PG's course, having turned to starboard, and the film shows the same period, before Hood is destroyed.

All the best

wadinga

[Alberto Virtuani]

Herr Nilsson wrote: "IIRC the splashes in the film could be possibly from salvo 17 or 18."

Hi Marc,
this would put the timing of the start of the film at around 6:02 instead of 6:03 (and not the ridiculous 5:55 (well before Hood explosion) as the hooligan deniers were proposing following wrong maps....)


However, according to the reconstruction of PoW salvos of Mr.Dunmunro's (who is not a conspirator, I guess), salvo 17 was a 3 shells salvo and salvo 18 a 4 shells salvo, none of them hitting, all of them evaluated as "short" by McMullen.

Are you telling me that the spread of these salvos (fired from less than 14 km) was so huge (much worse than Vittorio Veneto at Gaudo from 22 km... ) that we can only see one splash each ?
Also your "salvo 18" doesn't look short to me (even "long" I would say)......


IMO these are the locally directed salvos 20 and 21, each of one shell only.


Bye, Alberto

[Alberto Virtuani]

Hello everybody,
Mr.Wadinga keeps on asking questions but he has never acknowledged my one:

"Is the map kindly indicated by Mr.Wadinga (I understand he is unable to post a map, I will do it for him...) showing the PG track as per PG battlemap ? A simple answer? NOT AT ALL !.. Therefore this map is simply wrong."

and the (almost) "right" one is the one agreed between Rohwer, Schmalenbach and the Baron (see below), using the correct track for PG. The best available is our 2017 one of course (http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... 450#p79816), refining Antonio's 2005 one.

1978_Schmalenbach_Baron_Rohwer_map.jpg (57.2 KiB) Viewed 758 times

Does he agree that all maps showing a wrong track (different from her own battlemap) for PG are wrong ? (as well as all battlemaps using a track for Hood and PoW different from PoW's ones)

Has he understood from Marc above posts that the film is showing the part of battle after PoW retreat (started at 6:01:30 as per her map) and that NEVER before Hood explosion Bismarck turned on course 270° ? and that the mentioned photos were taken well after 6:03, at a later stage of the battle (with Bismarck taht turned back to port) ?



Bye, Alberto